waldo135

“Not a Delta pilot” doesn’t really answer the question? Do you work for ALPA?

Octaflugaron

In case you folks have forgotten, line pilots are the ones who PULL THE WEIGHT and keep our jobs safe. We are also the ones who create leverage, not ALPA or IPA or APA. Unions are only endowed with power that the rank and file allow them to have. NEVER should we allow the union to dictate to us how much our dues should be. If we want the union(s) to keep working for us, we had better keep them in check. The fact is (IMHO), dues are too high. Yes, we have some good contracts, but it is largely because we worked our collective asses off during the BK years under substandard wages and rules and some people higher up had the guts and the vision to make industry consolidation a reality.

We should never abdicate our rightful authority over the union bosses any more than we should let our government take too much of our money either. As a matter of fact, unions are a lot like governments; they create nothing. Taxpayers and rank and file workers do!

gloopy

Um, ok.

So what exactly are you advocating for, specifically?

Does ALPA "force" a particular dues rate outside of how ALPA reps elected by the memberships could otherwise reduce them?

NuGuy

Hey Denny,

You need to be very specific when you're talking about DC "excess".

Excess from the 415(c) limit ($55k) is excluded from dues in the C&BLs.

The excess from the 401(a)(17) compensation is what the issue has become. Recall that your DC contributions stop when you reach your compensation limit, even if you are below the 415(c) limit.

The duesable excess is only that above the compensation limit AND the 415(c) limit.

Granted even that is disagreeable but it's important to be specific when taking about this.

Nu

Denny Crane

Ok, my simplistic understanding was any compensation labeled "DPSP Cash" on ones paystub was going to be subject to dues. Now you are saying that isn't correct? The only money subject to dues will be that paid as DPSP Cash in excess of, for 2018, $275,000?

Denny

NuGuy

Hi Denny,

Correct. Only dues above the $275k limit is considered duesable. Even if you somehow hit the $275k limit without triggering the 415(c) limit, only that part above the 415(c) limit is duesable.

ALPA CAN'T dues you on DC excess money above the 415(c) limit but below the 401(a)(17) limit. It's against the C&BLs.

"Why weren't they doing this before?". Good question. The old DAL payroll system didn't break out the two numbers, so there was no data to go on.

Nu

Denny Crane

Thanks Nu. Well, that's a little something. I still disagree with any earnings that are designated DPSP Cash being subject to dues.

FWIW, I knew the answer to that question.

It's my understanding, and this years ALPA BOD meeting, the Delta MEC will be seeking a dues reduction and try to exempt the overage we are discussing from dues? Thanks,

Denny

Flytolive

The Twenty Most Common Questions About ALPA .....From APA Pilots

Published on April 4, 2018

Neil Roghair, AA 777 Pilot

1. I hear a lot of pilots talking about going to ALPA, both good and bad. What's the latest?

Domicile resolutions to explore the possibility of merging with ALPA were passed overwhelmingly in PHX, LAX and PHL. Moving a resolution forward at the APA Board level will require increased calls to explore a merger with ALPA at the other eight domiciles. Grassroots efforts make a difference. If you care, get involved.

2. ALPA dues are almost double ours. Why would we ever go to that?

APA dues have been 1.5% for most of our careers. Our dues are 1% when we are not in active negotiations or bankruptcy. We will go back to 1.5% once we commence openers (which is just over eight months away). ALPA dues are currently 1.95% for all pilot groups. If AA pilots were to join ALPA, it is estimated that ALPA dues could go permanently to 1.5% for all pilots in the ALPA system......maybe even less.

3. Wouldn't we just be changing the sign on the building and the letterhead?

After the recent merger and seniority integration, APA desperately needs a catalyst to reinvigorate membership involvement and allegiance. A significant percentage of our membership has no particular allegiance to APA, which is why I think a vote on the ALPA issue is so vital. To re-engage the membership and to give our pilots a strong sense of ownership, we need to vote on whether to go back to ALPA or remain independent as APA. Let the chips fall where they may, but in either outcome, the membership will own the outcome and be personally invested in the union we choose. Current levels of apathy tell us we desperately need a vote to build buy-in on who we are and how we are represented. We need a unified vote on representation by all fifteen thousand pilots.

Merging with ALPA would substantially change our structure and our processes. APA needs more structure, professional guidance and resources. We desperately need closer communications with other pilot groups if we want to leverage industry contract language, norms, standards and pattern bargaining.

4. Wouldn't the same pilots be our leaders? Nothing would really change, right?

If there was ever a time to have this discussion, it is now. The massive retirements on the line will also trigger significant turnover on the APA Board in the years ahead. APA needs leaders under age 55 to step up and we definitely need to be grooming leaders in their forties to lead the next generation of our pilots. We need to be sending our young pilots to Herndon to build contacts with other pilot groups and to become future ALPA leaders. We need young pilots to step up and get involved.

ALPA provides prolific amounts of training to union committee members and leaders, which conveys decades of experience from dozens of properties. APA lives in a small hermit echo chamber by comparison. We need leaders who are comparing notes and strategies with experienced leaders at other pilot groups. That isn't happening at all right now.

5. Isn't there an obvious conflict of interest since ALPA represents most of the regionals?

Anyone who is asking this question is stuck in the past and blind to what is happening around us. In the decades of massive stagnation, there was a conflict of interest. In the decade ahead of us, the exact opposite is true. No one wants to be at the mainline more than the regional pilots. No one wants regional flying to be moved to the mainlines, more than the regional pilots. The paradigm has shifted so radically that the regional pilot goals are now completely aligned with ours and will only get stronger during the next fifteen plus years.

6. Why don't we just form a major airline pilot union with just us, Delta and United?

Okay, first, let me ask you this. Who is working on that? You know the answer: No one. Anyone who uses this as their excuse is embracing the status quo by supporting an outcome that absolutely no one is working to make happen and is very unlikely to ever happen.

Second, what does locking arms with Delta and United accomplish for us that is more beneficial than also linking up with FedEx, Hawaiian, Alaska, JetBlue, Spirit? As the pilot shortage intensifies, representing all pilots is more powerful than representing a segment of pilots.

7. Why don't we join up with Southwest pilots?

Same answer as #6. Who is working on that? How does that make us any more powerful or influential. If we return to ALPA, the odds go up that someday UPS and maybe even Southwest will join the movement. FedEx returned to ALPA. JetBlue recently joined ALPA. Frontier recently joined ALPA. Momentum breeds momentum. As they say in the investing world.....the trend is your friend.

8. Aren't we more effective in Washington DC as an independent voice and as the big dog pilot group at CAPA (Coalition of Airline Pilot Associations)?

I deeply respect the APA volunteers who work on our Government Affairs Committee and at CAPA. Many of them I consider good friends. Some of them are very opposed to discussions of going back to ALPA. It should tell you a lot when I am willing to step on the toes of pilots I have worked with for many years, (who I consider good friends). My time inside APA led me to conclude that we owe the pilots who represent us in Washington DC more support, more resources and a bigger microphone to speak from. Instead of competing with ALPA, we need to be shaping ALPA positions and heavily manning ALPA committees. Our APA pilots in Washington DC do great work under their current circumstances and with the resources they are allocated. I firmly believe they could (and should) be even more effective LEADING the world's largest pilot union.

9. Aren't you just trying to get a cushy ALPA leadership job out of this?

Absolutely not. I gave six years of my life to full-time APA work during a very painful era. I flew very little during that time and it took an enormous toll on myself and my family. I am enjoying being back on the line, making more money than I did inside APA, and I now have much less stress and lots of time off. My time in the building led me to the conclusion that the pilots of American Airlines need to return to ALPA. The true effectiveness of a return to ALPA would occur years from now, long after I am retired. As Walt Disney often said: Dare to dream so big that it can not possibly be accomplished in your lifetime.

10. Aren't you just doing this to blame APA for your personal failings in AMR bankruptcy and begging ALPA to save us?

The irony of this question is that even though APA has never had an industry-leading contract in it's entire 55 year existence, some APA pilots who are passionately opposed to going back to ALPA often cite the fact that APA did far better in bankruptcy than any other pilot group as justification for not even discussing ALPA. We did the best we could to mitigate the bankruptcy buzz saw. In most cases, things that ended up better than expected, were often because of our contacts and lines of communications with ALPA pilot groups.

But with that said, we should treat this like colleges pick their football coaches. All decisions should be based upon results and trophies brought home. If we aren't happy with the results of the past 55 years, we should be brave enough to break with the status quo and make the bold changes that put us in a stronger position to achieve the industry-leading contracts we deserve.

11. So if we merge with ALPA, what changes?

We would be engaged and attending all ALPA functions where information is shared. Our board (MEC) members would get ALPA new board member training. Our negotiators and other key personnel would attend ALPA negotiating training events. We would get a seat on the ALPA Executive Council, where we would have a major voice in setting ALPA policy and strategy. We would have unfettered access to ALPA resources, which are substantial and far greater than anything APA can assemble on its own. We would have our pilots on nearly every ALPA committee. We would inform our membership through the ALPA pilot-to-pilot engagement program. We would conduct regular membership polls (when was the last time you got a poll from APA?). We would be shaping ALPA positions, rather than being on the outside of their decision-making and strategy cycles. We would have access to detailed information on other pilot group contracts. We would have access to a large pool of representation attorneys who have decades of experience working multiple contracts with many different airlines. APA can never replicate that pool of talent or experience.

There are so many pilots who pound the table saying we need to hire professional negotiators to work with us at the negotiating table. I couldn't agree with them more. Our pilot negotiators need all the professional support we can get them.

Hmmmm.....if only we could tap into a pool of attorneys whose only job in life was to negotiate pilot contracts.

12. I hate ALPA because of what they did to me in the past. ALPA has screwed more pilots than Carl Icahn and Frank Lorenzo combined. No friggin way. Are you blind to that?

Absolutely not not blind to that at all.

And for every example of why we should hate ALPA, someone can give an example of why we should hate APA. It would be easy (in any industry) to write an article on why we hate our unions. Unions are charged with making decisions over and over again that alienate some segment of their membership.It's the nature of the business and it isn't for the thin-skinned. Unions that have been in existence for many decades are bound to have made countless decisions that created widespread animosity. But it doesn't mean we stop looking forward. As I've said before, my father, when teaching me to drive taught me that windshields are much bigger than rear-view mirrors because looking forward is that much more important than looking backwards.

13. I think APA is worthless and weak. If we go to ALPA, can we park the jets?

"Parking the jets" sounds great, and maybe a unique set of circumstances and management missteps could get us to that point again, but it is the low-probability path to success. The industry is lacking in examples of pilot groups that successfully parked the jets and achieved all of their goals.

It's not a newsflash to say that the RLA and our legal system are heavily stacked against us. Pattern bargaining is far more powerful than any individual job action. Executive compensation got to where it is today through continually raising the bar through compensation committees. Major league athletes got to their current levels of compensation through a couple rare strikes, but more importantly through decades of pattern bargaining. Pattern bargaining and industry standards are the vehicle that will move us forward in a timely manner. The most recent contract at Delta moved their pilots to the top of the industry pay rates, and closed their gap in a handful of areas where their contract provisions were worse than ours. Keeping all pilots groups in the industry in a tight "shot group" also limits the downside during bankruptcy. Unfortunately, after 9/11, the wide differences among pilot contracts meant that pilots in bankruptcy were rushed to match the bottom contracts in the industry. I'll say it again......pattern bargaining is where our focus needs to be and that is why we need to be closely integrated with other pilot groups.

14. Aren't we contracting with ALPA right now? Can't we just rent their resources and maintain our independence?

APA is currently in a services agreement with ALPA, but that is a temporary arrangement. ALPA does not have to renew the services agreement and the arrangement is not something we can count on indefinitely. To count on those resources on a permanent basis, we need to become part of their organization. That's just common sense.

15. You seem to be advocating that APA needs to make some major cultural changes to get to a better place. So what are you saying?

One of my key takeaways from my time at APA is that we incorrectly put too much value on the memberships right to elect the national officers. As I said in my parting email to the membership, we place way too much attention on national elections, when local domicile elections are truly what shapes APA. I am a big believer that to decrease the dysfunction in the building, we would be better served by having the board/MEC select the national officers. Through consensus, it builds a better sense of team and accountability. It decreases the built-in friction and adversarial relationship which leads to fruitless infighting and wasted time during board meetings. It also makes the Chairman/President part of the board and includes him or her on all discussions and caucuses. It's the single biggest cultural issue we need to address. We need to elect our local domicile reps and hold them accountable for picking our national leaders. Our national leaders need to represent the majority consensus at all times.

APA often elects National Officers who campaign on how they are going to get the membership issue X,Y or Z. That is an incredible misrepresentation of the process and how things actually work. The Board (MEC) is the decision-making and policy-making body. National Officers need to be elected by the Board (MEC) to execute that guidance. It is the single biggest systemic (cultural) failure in the APA system that would be fixed by merging with ALPA.

16. ALPA staff and leaders are way overpaid. Why would we want to pay our dues to that?

My six years at the center of APA led me to conclude that we absolutely need a robust pool of attorneys and negotiators to support us. We absolutely need a robust E&FA (Economic and Financial Analysis) Department. Nothing APA can assemble even comes close in either category. We need professionals who can talk with and guide our Board with credibility. Our Board is the true Negotiating Committee and they need every possible resource to guide them in their decision-making . We need professionals who know what is going on at all the other negotiating tables in the industry. Information is power.

As the biggest pilot union at ALPA, we can influence staff and leadership compensation at ALPA. We should challenge how dues are spent in Herndon and a merger with ALPA should make ALPA uncomfortable as well.....on behalf of all ALPA pilots. But with that said, I am here to say that looking back on my experiences, any money spent on professional negotiator-attorneys and E&FA would have been money very well spent. With so much at stake in all of our careers, some things are so worth investing in.

17. Why isn't APA at least talking with ALPA about a possible merger?

There is no downside to having this debate and a membership vote.

But just because your reps might be blocking this discussion doesn't mean they are bad people. They are representing a segment of our pilots who are adamantly opposed to this conversation. I get that. But in a conversation of this magnitude, the decision should not be based upon anecdotal conversation, but should instead be based upon legitimate membership polls and votes.

18. If APA leadership is resisting any talk about ALPA, why don't we organize a card drive?

Negotiating a merger with ALPA has much more upside for APA pilots than a card drive. Negotiating a merger allows us to build in protections for our staff and our current resources. We need leaders to step up and run for office who support the exploration of a return to ALPA.

19. What if we have a vote on ALPA and it fails? Wouldn't this be a complete waste of time?

A representation vote, regardless of outcome, is so worthwhile on so many levels.

After several mergers, our pilot group is extremely Balkanized. Many of the sub-groups among our 15,000 pilots have absolutely zero allegiance to APA. A representation vote on ALPA might pass by a landslide. Or it might fail by a landslide. But we need to know how the membership feels about it, to be sure. Before a final vote, we need to poll the membership on whether there is interest in exploring a merger with ALPA. Without input from everyone, a small handful of pilots end up deciding for all of us.

Conversely, if the membership votes resoundingly against going to ALPA, that is hugely valuable as well. A vote to NOT explore merging with ALPA, serves as a huge vote of confidence for APA. THERE IS NO DOWNSIDE TO HAVING THIS DEBATE. If the membership tells us to double down on the APA business model, then we have an APA mandate that we desperately need. If the membership tells us to explore merging with ALPA, then let's explore that aggressively.

20. If we go to ALPA, wouldn't we be giving up our sovereignty? Guys fought hard years ago to leave ALPA. Why would we give up the sovereignty they fought for?

Our ancestors broke with ALPA policy and threw the two-stripers under the bus in exchange for a pay raise and becoming a company union. We are still a company union. APA has had some brilliant individual examples of success in Washington DC and some examples of where we were on the outside looking in. My conclusion is that we are far better off leading the world's largest pilot union from the inside, as opposed to fighting for relevancy in our own bubble of sovereignty.

My conclusion is that sovereignty and five dollars will get you a really good cup of coffee to sip on while the rest of the industry determines your future.

We absolutely need a robust debate on whether we merge with ALPA or double down on our independent company union. Whatever the outcome, this needs to be decided by the membership ......and only the membership.

If you support exploring our long-overdue return to ALPA, please share this post with your fellow pilots.

Neil

Denny Crane

The only number that connects with this thread is number 2. The rest is eyewash. So, Alpa dues is 1.95%. Will that change if AA pilots come on board or does it still take a vote of the Alpa BOD?

According to what you’ve written in the past, I would say you’d be against that dues reduction as well..........given the state of the MCF. Am I wrong?

Denny

Flytolive

I get that the other points are inconvenient for those bent on decreasing the dues rate now no matter the cost, but they are indeed most instructive regarding to this subject.