skywatch

Not going to let you off that easy. Like Lt. Daniel Kaffee - You said, "there are double the number of excess deaths a day this month". I said, show me where that is true and you gave me an article that shows more excess deaths in April and August . And I said, no show me where there are double the number of excess deaths a day this month like you said" and you said "blah blah blah look at how many extra deaths are here 4000 per week" and I said, no, the question was show me where it says there are double the number of excess deaths this month - I can have the court reporter read it back to you" and you said "I know what I said I don't need it read back to me! it is still terrible so many extra deaths..."

can you not handle the truth? Let me repeat the question. Show me where is says there are double the number of excess deaths a day this month. Should be a simple ask.

Knobcrk1

I never said there are double the number of excess deaths a day this month. Keep searching you’ll never find it. I just joined you guys to show you that in fact there are more excess deaths as that was the essence of what you guys were debating. 198k in 10 months worth. Jan to Oct. I thought you were trying to have an intelligent exchange, I guess not.

wornTiller

Who is responsible for Knob's personal health & safety when he walks out the front door each day?

Himself?
Other people?
The government?

If you slip and fall on an icy sidewalk while getting coffee, do you blame yourself for wearing white New Balance?

Or sue Starbucks?

If you are diabetic, do you blame your lifestyle decision making?

Or blame Cuomo for not banning 64 oz Cokes?

​​​​​​If you have heart disease, do you take responsibility for eating daily ribeyes and poor LDM?

Or blame the government for not mandating daily fruit baskets and arresting those flaunting dietary restrictions?

You make a conscious choice each day to head out into the world and be a risk taker. You accept the risks of life because life is worth LIVING.

If someone sneezes on you and you get COVID, if someone coughs and you get the flu, if you stick your pen into the street corner ink, and get HIV, if you smoke cigarettes and get lung cancer, if you go walking and get hit by a bus, if you go driving and get head-on'd by a DUI, is that your statistical bad luck for living life that day?

Or is it something to blame others for?

Does the contagious nature of some of those causes of death affect the underlying death rate? No? Contagious vs not is irrelevant.

Notice I didn't say we shouldn't use masks, ignition interlocks, and Trojan magnums, but we also cannot pretend anyone can guarantee personal safety.

I'll give my at-risk family members a courtesy call before visiting. "Do you want to see the grandkids, or you want them to f#$& off this Christmas?"

​​​​​​I can respect their decision either way. But whether they eat Obama-era canned beans alone in their basement bunker or just go full send to the grocery store, church, and bingo night, should behavior be mandated by the government, (to ostensibly save other lives) or it be their personal responsibility and choice?

Outside of family, society cannot be expected to get the same courtesy call. Scared of restaurants? Don't eat out. But cooks and waitresses have mouths to feed, a heat bill to pay, and winter is coming.

The population 0-18 should be in school. 18-40 should be living a normal work & party life, spreading the virus around, and staying away from those older or higher risk groups. Hell, even 40-49 should take the 97% good-to-go and run with it. The data confirm this to be the case.

But you can't blame people for trying to make a living who might get a 78 year old couple sick if they choose to go out to get the early-bird special at Ponderosa.

The moment they step off that front porch, they are putting their life at risk.

I think much of the discussion on here should not be right / wrong, left / right, liberal / conservative, but
do you take responsibility for your own life, or not?

skywatch

You're correct - you jumped in to defend Gateface's claim. So for either of you, Gateface, can you post where I can find that there are double the number of excess deaths this month?

GateAgent007

First off... it's a 50% increase, not 100%. Math better, please.


Second, this is an estimation based on the number of deaths occurring. We won't have full statistics for the week of 12/12 for another month, so you'll just have to be patient to see what the overage is for this week. It takes about 4 to 5 weeks for the CDC to tabulate all the deaths and push it to this report.


But we can read the tea leaves from this report and extrapolate how much "over" the country is. Look at 4/11 and 4/18. They were both 42% over average with about 2,000 COVID deaths per day. We're pushing 2,500 right now, which should put us around 150%.




https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid19/index.htm

I'm sorry this all offends you. But when this is all said and done, we're losing 80,000+ people per week in total. And that is not normal.

Knobcrk1

This is where the disconnect is. One individual may say, If I get it I get it. However they don’t realize that they will spread it to someone that doesn’t want to get it, not to mention start a chain infection. It’s not bad luck for the second guy that got it, it’s cause and effect from the first guy. Definitely something to blame the first guy for.

Speed Select

The disconnect seems to be that you don’t understand that EVERYONE takes a risk of getting CV by leaving their front porch. If the second person doesn’t want to risk getting sick, then they should elevate their mitigation measures. You are correct that it’s “not bad luck that the second guy got it.” It’s calculated risk.

Life is inherently risky. The real debate is, who responsible for your personal safety and well-being, you as an individual or collective society?

The collective will protect you as long as it’s expedient to do so. Individual reliance tends to be more... reliable, but often lacks desired resources.

Really, that sums up everything in this country. People hate Trump and call him various manifestations of Cheetos because he’s a proponent of the individual.Hollywood, social media, professional sports, bureaucracies, etc promote the collective, which offers safety in numbers and has an effect on mass psyche. However, in the opinion of approximately 73 million Americans, collectivism has crept into aspects of our lives way beyond what the framers intended, and has become a fear-fueled vehicle to wealth and power for many politicians (“if you don’t vote for me, Paul Ryan is going to roll Grandma off a cliff”).

As with everything in nature, there will be winners and losers.

RiddleEagle18

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Rahlifer

Early humans survived and thrived because they lived in communal groups that worked together and even tended to the old and wounded. (Gasp!) We're mostly responsible for our own safety and well being once we’ve reached a certain level of maturity. But we do still have a level of responsibility to each other if we are to consider ourselves “civilized”. That includes the responsibility to not recklessly or carelessly endanger others. I honestly don’t care if someone chooses to drink a bottle of Jack Daniels for breakfast, but I do care if they then decide to get behind the wheel of a car and go tearing through my neighborhood. I don’t care if you want to jump off the roof of a building but I sure as hell care that you don’t land on me.
As far as why normal people find trump repugnant, it’s not a crushing desire to bring about communism, he’s just not a nice person. He plays up to the worst parts of human psychology. The anger, hatred, selfishness, the need to blame “those people”, etc.

Knobcrk1

Oh ok, is it about Trump and the democrats or actually doing/caring about what’s right in a pandemic?

Are you saying the first guys disregard and individual choice to be ok with infecting others is just a “risk” the second guy should accept for leaving the house? It doesn’t work like that, in a pandemic. Only way to get through this is with collective will.