Captain who doesn't share flying?
10-24-2009, 09:58 AM
#41
The NeverEnding Story
Joined APC: Sep 2005
Posts: 7,618
Originally Posted by minitour
Moving all of my stuff in between legs is just way more than I'm interested in doing.
That's the beauty of Part 91 airplanes with a file server and only two pilots I suppose...the only thing that moves is our sunglasses and our butts!
10-24-2009, 11:02 AM
#42
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2008
Posts: 450
It's a royal pain.
-mini
10-24-2009, 01:20 PM
#43
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2008
Position: A320
Posts: 321
The problem is you're questioning something you don't have any experience in, and you're not thinking outside your own predefined box.
The airline method works well when there is one PIC and one SIC...but when you've got two qualified PICs flying together that are both captains on the airplane, swapping seats (and PF/PM duties) is a perfectly safe, perfectly reasonable, perfectly acceptable solution.
The airline method works well when there is one PIC and one SIC...but when you've got two qualified PICs flying together that are both captains on the airplane, swapping seats (and PF/PM duties) is a perfectly safe, perfectly reasonable, perfectly acceptable solution.
10-24-2009, 01:44 PM
#44
The NeverEnding Story
Joined APC: Sep 2005
Posts: 7,618
Evidently not, if you think a two-captain cockpit does anything to compromise safety.
Many small companies with one aircraft only have two pilots (such as mine). If one pilot is on vacation or otherwise unavailable, then in order to fly a trip a contract pilot would need to be hired. Combine this with the common internal policy that only company pilots will act as PIC on the company airplane and, with an airline-style crewing situation, you'd run into a situation where the "captain" would always have to be available in order for the airplane to fly.
Would you want to work for a company where you could never have a day off?
Employing two captains gives a company scheduling & crewing flexibility that is worth far more to them being able to go when they need/want to go than any additional compensation it costs them. Besides, in a small department one pilot is often the Chief Pilot/Av Dept Manager and the other pilot is a captain...and if you're the CP/ADM and can't trust your colleague to fly the airplane without you then you didn't do you job hiring them in the first place.
In a department of any size, a well-written SOP should clearly define who is PIC and when. In my small department with two pilots who are both captains, the PIC of any given flight is the company pilot in the left command seat performing Pilot Flying duties. Having such a division ensures clear communications & division of responsibilities in the cockpit.
You don't understand co-captain operations because you haven't done it and it isn't familiar to you...and that's okay. But just because you don't do it that way at the airlines doesn't mean its any less safe or desirable than what you're familiar with.
Many small companies with one aircraft only have two pilots (such as mine). If one pilot is on vacation or otherwise unavailable, then in order to fly a trip a contract pilot would need to be hired. Combine this with the common internal policy that only company pilots will act as PIC on the company airplane and, with an airline-style crewing situation, you'd run into a situation where the "captain" would always have to be available in order for the airplane to fly.
Would you want to work for a company where you could never have a day off?
Employing two captains gives a company scheduling & crewing flexibility that is worth far more to them being able to go when they need/want to go than any additional compensation it costs them. Besides, in a small department one pilot is often the Chief Pilot/Av Dept Manager and the other pilot is a captain...and if you're the CP/ADM and can't trust your colleague to fly the airplane without you then you didn't do you job hiring them in the first place.
In a department of any size, a well-written SOP should clearly define who is PIC and when. In my small department with two pilots who are both captains, the PIC of any given flight is the company pilot in the left command seat performing Pilot Flying duties. Having such a division ensures clear communications & division of responsibilities in the cockpit.
You don't understand co-captain operations because you haven't done it and it isn't familiar to you...and that's okay. But just because you don't do it that way at the airlines doesn't mean its any less safe or desirable than what you're familiar with.
10-24-2009, 02:36 PM
#45
Guest
Posts: n/a
I can envision outside of my "box"....2 egos is what I envision. Thinking outside the box here do both "co-captains" get captain payrates under this scenario? Why would a company on a small jet want to pay captain rates on a jet that requires 1 or possibly 2 pilots. Doesn't seem that would make alot of financial sense (putting aside the safety issue)?
Do you get it now?
10-24-2009, 02:38 PM
#46
Guest
Posts: n/a
Evidently not, if you think a two-captain cockpit does anything to compromise safety.
Many small companies with one aircraft only have two pilots (such as mine). If one pilot is on vacation or otherwise unavailable, then in order to fly a trip a contract pilot would need to be hired. Combine this with the common internal policy that only company pilots will act as PIC on the company airplane and, with an airline-style crewing situation, you'd run into a situation where the "captain" would always have to be available in order for the airplane to fly.
Would you want to work for a company where you could never have a day off?
Employing two captains gives a company scheduling & crewing flexibility that is worth far more to them being able to go when they need/want to go than any additional compensation it costs them. Besides, in a small department one pilot is often the Chief Pilot/Av Dept Manager and the other pilot is a captain...and if you're the CP/ADM and can't trust your colleague to fly the airplane without you then you didn't do you job hiring them in the first place.
In a department of any size, a well-written SOP should clearly define who is PIC and when. In my small department with two pilots who are both captains, the PIC of any given flight is the company pilot in the left command seat performing Pilot Flying duties. Having such a division ensures clear communications & division of responsibilities in the cockpit.
You don't understand co-captain operations because you haven't done it and it isn't familiar to you...and that's okay. But just because you don't do it that way at the airlines doesn't mean its any less safe or desirable than what you're familiar with.
Many small companies with one aircraft only have two pilots (such as mine). If one pilot is on vacation or otherwise unavailable, then in order to fly a trip a contract pilot would need to be hired. Combine this with the common internal policy that only company pilots will act as PIC on the company airplane and, with an airline-style crewing situation, you'd run into a situation where the "captain" would always have to be available in order for the airplane to fly.
Would you want to work for a company where you could never have a day off?
Employing two captains gives a company scheduling & crewing flexibility that is worth far more to them being able to go when they need/want to go than any additional compensation it costs them. Besides, in a small department one pilot is often the Chief Pilot/Av Dept Manager and the other pilot is a captain...and if you're the CP/ADM and can't trust your colleague to fly the airplane without you then you didn't do you job hiring them in the first place.
In a department of any size, a well-written SOP should clearly define who is PIC and when. In my small department with two pilots who are both captains, the PIC of any given flight is the company pilot in the left command seat performing Pilot Flying duties. Having such a division ensures clear communications & division of responsibilities in the cockpit.
You don't understand co-captain operations because you haven't done it and it isn't familiar to you...and that's okay. But just because you don't do it that way at the airlines doesn't mean its any less safe or desirable than what you're familiar with.
10-24-2009, 06:23 PM
#48
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2008
Position: A320
Posts: 321
Fine fair enough...but your telling me that your making major 121 rates (not RJs) flying Citations? I just find that hard to believe in a small Citation. A international G5 maybe but as you said I guess you pay for it having no hard days off, on call 24/7?
10-24-2009, 08:05 PM
#49
On Reserve
Joined APC: Jul 2009
Position: Falcon 50EX Captain
Posts: 21
Why would anyone want to sling gear as a "co-captain" and never touch the jet? I guess I would for major 121 "co-captain" rates but why put up with that sort of crap? Much less flying for free in a single pilot turboprop....pilots are their own worst enemies not management.
Getting back to the original issue.....I think it sucks that a captain would not want to share the flying from the left seat. With a group of senior experienced aviators, what red blooded pilot with command experience would not want to fly from the left seat periodically? What captain would not want to mentor/train a less experienced aviator by exposing them to the left seat if not specifically prohibited by the operation. Our Falcon is definitely a crew served system with both seats playing an equally important role on each and every mission. We normally divide up the legs when it makes sense and everyone knows who is in command of the aircraft. Every operation is different. At our operation, we don't normally fly from the right seat. Our FOM and SOPs are fairly rigorous with clearly defined duties for both seats. Doesn't mean we can't, we just don't. Keeps things fairly straight forward when in a specific seat. No gray areas. We even train together as crews in the simulator to reinforce our FOM and SOPs. Those with much less experienced first officers may very well need to keep them in the right seat for awhile (not forever!)
Being a captain for a top fortune flight department carries a tremendous responsibility - personal interaction with principal passengers, transportation/catering coordination, security, flight planning/weather etc. I don't view the trips where I'm not assigned as the captain as "bag slinging". It's actually nice to get a break once in awhile and sometimes there's a lot more "work" involved being assigned as "copilot" for the trip - preflights, powering up the aircraft, right seat and left seat duties. Why these discussions always seem to breakdown into I'm right and your wrong because I'm an airline pilot or I have more posts than you just makes me laugh.
10-24-2009, 08:42 PM
#50
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2008
Posts: 450
...and where did I say I "pay for it having no hard days off, on call 24/7"?
-mini
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