Compass Updates - Saga Continues
05-10-2016, 06:43 PM
#812
Line Holder
Joined APC: Feb 2006
Posts: 79
In regards to the BIL CDOs. My bad, apparently the current schedule abides by the contract. As I just found out from ALPA, who had a sit down with the company...layover starts at brake set/door open and ends at brake release from the station. I guess I didn't realize I was on a layover 45 minutes after I showed up for the flight.
05-10-2016, 07:17 PM
#814
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2014
Posts: 1,186
From some of the "senior" pilots I've talked to, they all said they didn't vote because they didn't even know the people running anyways...
05-10-2016, 07:32 PM
#815
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2010
Posts: 218
In regards to the BIL CDOs. My bad, apparently the current schedule abides by the contract. As I just found out from ALPA, who had a sit down with the company...layover starts at brake set/door open and ends at brake release from the station. I guess I didn't realize I was on a layover 45 minutes after I showed up for the flight.
mid-duty rest between the hours of 2200 and 0500 must be
provided sometime after the completion of the first flight
segment of the FDP. The rest period must be scheduled
before the beginning of the FDP and must consist of not
less than 3 hours in a suitable accommodation."
You get in at 0101. Realistically, there is no way to be on the van until 0120 with post flight duties, and even that's optimistic: I'd say you're more likely on the van at 0130 and probably get to the hotel and into your suitable accomodation about 0150. Since show time is 0445, that's not 3 hours of suitable accommodation especially since I'm assuming van time is closer to 0415? Make sure you get your 3 hours of suitable accommodation behind the door for 117 is what I'm saying. If they have to delay the departure, so be it, it's a 117 requirement.
Edit: full text:
Minimum Split-Duty Rest. Split-duty rest breaks provide carriers conducting nighttime operations with additional flexibility. Split-duty rest must be at least 3 hours long and must be scheduled in advance. The actual split-duty rest breaks may not be shorter than the scheduled split-duty rest breaks. The rationale for this is that flightcrew members must, at the beginning of their FDP, evaluate their ability to safely complete their entire assigned FDP. In order to do so, they must not only know the length of the FDP, but any scheduled split-duty rest breaks that they will receive during their FDP.
B. Unaugment Operations Only. Split-duty may only be applied to an unaugmented flightcrew member; therefore, an augmented flightcrew may not receive any split-duty rest credit under the provisions prescribed in § 117.15.
C. Suitable Accommodation. The split-duty rest must occur in a suitable accommodation during his or her FDP. The time that the flightcrew member spends in the suitable accommodation is not considered part of that flightcrew member’s FDP if all of the following conditions are met:
1) The rest opportunity is provided between the hours of 2200 and 0500 local time.
2) The time spent in the suitable accommodation is at least 3 hours, measured from the time that the flightcrew member reaches the suitable accommodation.
3) The rest opportunity is scheduled before the beginning of the flightcrew member’s FDP in which that rest opportunity is taken.
4) The rest opportunity that the flightcrew member is actually provided may not be less than the rest opportunity that was scheduled.
5) The split-duty rest opportunity may not be provided until the flightcrew member’s first segment of that FDP has been completed.
6) The combined time of the FDP and the split-duty rest opportunity may not exceed 14 hours.
NOTE: If the combined split-duty rest opportunity and FDP time of a flightcrew member exceeds 14 hours, then the amount of split-duty rest that caused the exceedance would not count as split-duty. Instead, this time would simply count as part of the flightcrew member’s FDP, and it would be subject to the FDP extensions specified in § 117.19.
D. Scheduled vs. Actual Split-Duty Rest Break. Subsection 117.15(d) states that the actual split-duty rest opportunity may not be less than the scheduled split-duty rest opportunity. However, § 117.15 does not prohibit actual split-duty rest from exceeding the scheduled split-duty rest. If the actual split-duty rest period exceeds the scheduled rest period, then the actual rest provided to the flightcrew member would be considered split-duty as long as that rest period is within the 14-hour limit specified in § 117.15(f).
It's pretty clear that your 3 hours doesn't start until you're at the hotel. And you must spend at least 3 hours at the hotel. "The time spent in the suitable accommodation is at least 3 hours, measured from the time that the flightcrew member reaches the suitable accommodation."
05-10-2016, 07:49 PM
#816
Line Holder
Joined APC: Feb 2006
Posts: 79
117 rules for CDO: "Yes, it imposes several conditions on such scheduling. A
mid-duty rest between the hours of 2200 and 0500 must be
provided sometime after the completion of the first flight
segment of the FDP. The rest period must be scheduled
before the beginning of the FDP and must consist of not
less than 3 hours in a suitable accommodation."
You get in at 0101. Realistically, there is no way to be on the van until 0120 with post flight duties, and even that's optimistic: I'd say you're more likely on the van at 0130 and probably get to the hotel and into your suitable accomodation about 0150. Since show time is 0445, that's not 3 hours of suitable accommodation especially since I'm assuming van time is closer to 0415? Make sure you get your 3 hours of suitable accommodation behind the door for 117 is what I'm saying. If they have to delay the departure, so be it, it's a 117 requirement.
Edit: full text:
Minimum Split-Duty Rest. Split-duty rest breaks provide carriers conducting nighttime operations with additional flexibility. Split-duty rest must be at least 3 hours long and must be scheduled in advance. The actual split-duty rest breaks may not be shorter than the scheduled split-duty rest breaks. The rationale for this is that flightcrew members must, at the beginning of their FDP, evaluate their ability to safely complete their entire assigned FDP. In order to do so, they must not only know the length of the FDP, but any scheduled split-duty rest breaks that they will receive during their FDP.
B. Unaugment Operations Only. Split-duty may only be applied to an unaugmented flightcrew member; therefore, an augmented flightcrew may not receive any split-duty rest credit under the provisions prescribed in § 117.15.
C. Suitable Accommodation. The split-duty rest must occur in a suitable accommodation during his or her FDP. The time that the flightcrew member spends in the suitable accommodation is not considered part of that flightcrew member’s FDP if all of the following conditions are met:
1) The rest opportunity is provided between the hours of 2200 and 0500 local time.
2) The time spent in the suitable accommodation is at least 3 hours, measured from the time that the flightcrew member reaches the suitable accommodation.
3) The rest opportunity is scheduled before the beginning of the flightcrew member’s FDP in which that rest opportunity is taken.
4) The rest opportunity that the flightcrew member is actually provided may not be less than the rest opportunity that was scheduled.
5) The split-duty rest opportunity may not be provided until the flightcrew member’s first segment of that FDP has been completed.
6) The combined time of the FDP and the split-duty rest opportunity may not exceed 14 hours.
NOTE: If the combined split-duty rest opportunity and FDP time of a flightcrew member exceeds 14 hours, then the amount of split-duty rest that caused the exceedance would not count as split-duty. Instead, this time would simply count as part of the flightcrew member’s FDP, and it would be subject to the FDP extensions specified in § 117.19.
D. Scheduled vs. Actual Split-Duty Rest Break. Subsection 117.15(d) states that the actual split-duty rest opportunity may not be less than the scheduled split-duty rest opportunity. However, § 117.15 does not prohibit actual split-duty rest from exceeding the scheduled split-duty rest. If the actual split-duty rest period exceeds the scheduled rest period, then the actual rest provided to the flightcrew member would be considered split-duty as long as that rest period is within the 14-hour limit specified in § 117.15(f).
It's pretty clear that your 3 hours doesn't start until you're at the hotel. And you must spend at least 3 hours at the hotel. "The time spent in the suitable accommodation is at least 3 hours, measured from the time that the flightcrew member reaches the suitable accommodation."
mid-duty rest between the hours of 2200 and 0500 must be
provided sometime after the completion of the first flight
segment of the FDP. The rest period must be scheduled
before the beginning of the FDP and must consist of not
less than 3 hours in a suitable accommodation."
You get in at 0101. Realistically, there is no way to be on the van until 0120 with post flight duties, and even that's optimistic: I'd say you're more likely on the van at 0130 and probably get to the hotel and into your suitable accomodation about 0150. Since show time is 0445, that's not 3 hours of suitable accommodation especially since I'm assuming van time is closer to 0415? Make sure you get your 3 hours of suitable accommodation behind the door for 117 is what I'm saying. If they have to delay the departure, so be it, it's a 117 requirement.
Edit: full text:
Minimum Split-Duty Rest. Split-duty rest breaks provide carriers conducting nighttime operations with additional flexibility. Split-duty rest must be at least 3 hours long and must be scheduled in advance. The actual split-duty rest breaks may not be shorter than the scheduled split-duty rest breaks. The rationale for this is that flightcrew members must, at the beginning of their FDP, evaluate their ability to safely complete their entire assigned FDP. In order to do so, they must not only know the length of the FDP, but any scheduled split-duty rest breaks that they will receive during their FDP.
B. Unaugment Operations Only. Split-duty may only be applied to an unaugmented flightcrew member; therefore, an augmented flightcrew may not receive any split-duty rest credit under the provisions prescribed in § 117.15.
C. Suitable Accommodation. The split-duty rest must occur in a suitable accommodation during his or her FDP. The time that the flightcrew member spends in the suitable accommodation is not considered part of that flightcrew member’s FDP if all of the following conditions are met:
1) The rest opportunity is provided between the hours of 2200 and 0500 local time.
2) The time spent in the suitable accommodation is at least 3 hours, measured from the time that the flightcrew member reaches the suitable accommodation.
3) The rest opportunity is scheduled before the beginning of the flightcrew member’s FDP in which that rest opportunity is taken.
4) The rest opportunity that the flightcrew member is actually provided may not be less than the rest opportunity that was scheduled.
5) The split-duty rest opportunity may not be provided until the flightcrew member’s first segment of that FDP has been completed.
6) The combined time of the FDP and the split-duty rest opportunity may not exceed 14 hours.
NOTE: If the combined split-duty rest opportunity and FDP time of a flightcrew member exceeds 14 hours, then the amount of split-duty rest that caused the exceedance would not count as split-duty. Instead, this time would simply count as part of the flightcrew member’s FDP, and it would be subject to the FDP extensions specified in § 117.19.
D. Scheduled vs. Actual Split-Duty Rest Break. Subsection 117.15(d) states that the actual split-duty rest opportunity may not be less than the scheduled split-duty rest opportunity. However, § 117.15 does not prohibit actual split-duty rest from exceeding the scheduled split-duty rest. If the actual split-duty rest period exceeds the scheduled rest period, then the actual rest provided to the flightcrew member would be considered split-duty as long as that rest period is within the 14-hour limit specified in § 117.15(f).
It's pretty clear that your 3 hours doesn't start until you're at the hotel. And you must spend at least 3 hours at the hotel. "The time spent in the suitable accommodation is at least 3 hours, measured from the time that the flightcrew member reaches the suitable accommodation."
05-10-2016, 08:46 PM
#817
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2010
Posts: 218
The issue isn't the 3 hours per part 117, it's the 4 hrs actual layover. Yes, you literally have to be exactly on time if not a few minutes early to meet the 3 hours at the hotel. The argument is, ALPA legal is agreeing that the definition of layover goes from brake set to brake release. Min layover for a CDO is 4 hrs. This is unacceptable. How am I on a layover when my show time was 45 minutes prior to brake release.
k. A Pilot performing a CDO shall receive an actual
layover of at least four (4) hours during the CDO Duty
Period.
They're using this definition:
“Block-to-Block” means that period of time beginning when the
parking brake is released after the passenger doors are closed
(“block-out”) and ending when the parking brake is set and the
passenger door opens (“block-in”).
Block-to-block is not in any way the same thing as a layover. Layover is left out of the 'definitions' section of the contract, which is why this is a problem. Also why did they throw the word 'actual' in front of layover when they negotiated this facacta contract I'll never understand.
Since the word layover is not defined within the contract definitions, I'd argue the google definition applies: "a period of rest or waiting before a further stage in a journey." Certainly, a show time and actual duty starting 45 min prior to your second leg is not a period of rest, a period of duty cannot be a period of rest by definition.
05-10-2016, 09:20 PM
#818
Line Holder
Joined APC: Feb 2006
Posts: 79
Thank you for backing me up on this. This is a big deal. And this combined with the company's complete and utter disregard for the contract, just goes to show how little they respect us as a pilot group. Case in point, the delay in releasing the bid as they are required to do which directly affects the quality of life of every pilot on the seniority list.
05-11-2016, 06:24 AM
#819
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2010
Position: Just another RJ guy
Posts: 906
This is very true. Theres a huge chunk of previous 121 guys who have been here for over a year that know better. Yet it appears as though people are happy with our MEC. I can't imagine having to deal with TSH managers so I know there job is hard. But it takes a particular kind of person to be able to deal with difficult managers and have a decent relationship. This MEC doesn't know how to do that. Their intentions are good.
05-11-2016, 08:10 AM
#820
New Hire
Joined APC: Dec 2015
Posts: 6
I am going to go on a little rant here.
Last month we all received the "Ugh" email shortly there after we received the apology email that finished with the statement "I hold all of our management to the same standard of professionalism that I hold our pilot group." and an "I take responsibility for these actions and can assure you that this will not continue to happen."
Now for my rant, if the individual that sent this email truly holds all of the management to the same standard of professionalism that he holds the pilot group than why has the bid process been a disaster for 5 straight bids. If I decided to show up for a report time 5 trips in a row a day late and decided to email the company four and half hours after my show saying not sure when I will be there I wont have a job very long. Now I understand that people keep saying on here that crew planning has been wiped out and there is no one in there that knows what they are doing, to that I just have to say I do not care, they are being paid to be a professional and do a job that is not being done properly. What upsets me the most is that to this point we have never in the 5 months received any sort of communication apologizing or taking responsibility for the continuation month after month of this contract violation. I feel if the individual that sent us an apology for the blatant lack of professionalism on the part of management he should also be sending us a communication apologizing for this less blatant but equally unprofessional action on part of management to follow the contract in regards to our bid process. He should also take responsibility and finish that email in the same way as before "I take responsibility for these actions and can assure you that this will not continue to happen."
If anything his unwillingness to take responsibility for the PBS disaster the last few months shows me just how much he really holds our management team to the same standards that he holds us.
Last month we all received the "Ugh" email shortly there after we received the apology email that finished with the statement "I hold all of our management to the same standard of professionalism that I hold our pilot group." and an "I take responsibility for these actions and can assure you that this will not continue to happen."
Now for my rant, if the individual that sent this email truly holds all of the management to the same standard of professionalism that he holds the pilot group than why has the bid process been a disaster for 5 straight bids. If I decided to show up for a report time 5 trips in a row a day late and decided to email the company four and half hours after my show saying not sure when I will be there I wont have a job very long. Now I understand that people keep saying on here that crew planning has been wiped out and there is no one in there that knows what they are doing, to that I just have to say I do not care, they are being paid to be a professional and do a job that is not being done properly. What upsets me the most is that to this point we have never in the 5 months received any sort of communication apologizing or taking responsibility for the continuation month after month of this contract violation. I feel if the individual that sent us an apology for the blatant lack of professionalism on the part of management he should also be sending us a communication apologizing for this less blatant but equally unprofessional action on part of management to follow the contract in regards to our bid process. He should also take responsibility and finish that email in the same way as before "I take responsibility for these actions and can assure you that this will not continue to happen."
If anything his unwillingness to take responsibility for the PBS disaster the last few months shows me just how much he really holds our management team to the same standards that he holds us.
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