Compass updates
01-14-2015, 03:25 PM
#5552
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2012
Position: Supreme Allied Commander
Posts: 1,074
The 4:45 pitfall with a 30hr layover is well known, average credit trips could become higher credit trips. But the opposite is true as well on a 30hr layover with a 4hr min day, low paying trips will be abismally low paying trips. Actually, 30hr overnights or not.
Take a 4-day trip with day 1=5hrs, day 2=4hrs, day 3 30hr layover=4hrs, day 4=4.5. 17.5hrs total, 4:37 avg. If your junior, I see ATDG as an insurance policy against bad trips ever being shoved down your throat.
Take a 4-day trip with day 1=5hrs, day 2=4hrs, day 3 30hr layover=4hrs, day 4=4.5. 17.5hrs total, 4:37 avg. If your junior, I see ATDG as an insurance policy against bad trips ever being shoved down your throat.
01-14-2015, 03:51 PM
#5553
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2009
Position: Middle Seat
Posts: 1,233
The 4:45 pitfall with a 30hr layover is well known, average credit trips could become higher credit trips. But the opposite is true as well on a 30hr layover with a 4hr min day, low paying trips will be abismally low paying trips. Actually, 30hr overnights or not.
Take a 4-day trip with day 1=5hrs, day 2=4hrs, day 3 30hr layover=4hrs, day 4=4.5. 17.5hrs total, 4:37 avg. If your junior, I see ATDG as an insurance policy against bad trips ever being shoved down your throat.
Take a 4-day trip with day 1=5hrs, day 2=4hrs, day 3 30hr layover=4hrs, day 4=4.5. 17.5hrs total, 4:37 avg. If your junior, I see ATDG as an insurance policy against bad trips ever being shoved down your throat.
I think the ADTG is kind of a sham because the only thing you're not getting with the 4 hour per calender day is the 4 hrs of credit counting towards your max scheduling credit for the month. The pay is still there.
With the 4:45 those 30 hr layovers can be easily erased by working your butt off the rest of the trip. With a 5 day trip, you can fly 6 hours per day for 4 days and sit for 30 hours eating up a 5th day. With ADTG that trip will count for 24 hrs, but with min 4 hrs per calender day it would pay 28 hrs, but only credit 24 for scheduling purposes.
Example: ADTG - D1=6 hrs D2=6hrs D3(30hr)=0hrs pay, 0 credit D4=6hrs D5=6hrs Total pay = greater of 23:15 or 24:00
4 hr per Day - D1=6 hrs D2=6hrs D3(30hr)=4hrs pay, 0 credit D4=6hrs D5=6hrs Total pay = 28:00 pay for 24:00 credit
The company creates the schedule that fits the departures and arrivals that Delta gives them. The company doesn't care all that much about the 4 hours of pay, they care about the efficiency of getting the most out of every flight crew. I'd say if they're gonna make us fly a lot, then make us sit for 30 hours we might as well get paid for it.
01-14-2015, 04:06 PM
#5554
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2012
Position: Supreme Allied Commander
Posts: 1,074
I would think a Jr person would want the 4 hour pay, but no credit because now they're making money with the ability to make more.
I think the ADTG is kind of a sham because the only thing you're not getting with the 4 hour per calender day is the 4 hrs of credit counting towards your max scheduling credit for the month. The pay is still there.
With the 4:45 those 30 hr layovers can be easily erased by working your butt off the rest of the trip. With a 5 day trip, you can fly 6 hours per day for 4 days and sit for 30 hours eating up a 5th day. With ADTG that trip will count for 24 hrs, but with min 4 hrs per calender day it would pay 28 hrs, but only credit 24 for scheduling purposes.
The company creates the schedule that fits the departures and arrivals that Delta gives them. The company doesn't care all that much about the 4 hours of pay, they care about the efficiency of getting the most out of every flight crew. I'd say if they're gonna make us fly a lot, then make us sit for 30 hours we might as well get paid for it.
I think the ADTG is kind of a sham because the only thing you're not getting with the 4 hour per calender day is the 4 hrs of credit counting towards your max scheduling credit for the month. The pay is still there.
With the 4:45 those 30 hr layovers can be easily erased by working your butt off the rest of the trip. With a 5 day trip, you can fly 6 hours per day for 4 days and sit for 30 hours eating up a 5th day. With ADTG that trip will count for 24 hrs, but with min 4 hrs per calender day it would pay 28 hrs, but only credit 24 for scheduling purposes.
The company creates the schedule that fits the departures and arrivals that Delta gives them. The company doesn't care all that much about the 4 hours of pay, they care about the efficiency of getting the most out of every flight crew. I'd say if they're gonna make us fly a lot, then make us sit for 30 hours we might as well get paid for it.
01-14-2015, 04:40 PM
#5555
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2009
Position: Middle Seat
Posts: 1,233
I see. But the opposite is true. A 5-day trip could pay 20hrs with 4hr min day. Having prior to here flown DL on 76 seaters and 4-hr min day, we would get lower paying trips than are legal right now with ADTG. Either way, if the biggest pay and scheduling complaint is averaging 4:45 on 3-5 day trips that could be 5:45 on those occasional 30hr layovers, well thats not too bad I guess.
I think the biggest effect is on reserves, but as mentioned before a reserve holder rarely breaks 75 because even with 4:45, you stop getting used around 72 hours.
01-14-2015, 05:57 PM
#5556
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2009
Posts: 175
Reserve credit leveling does its' job well, it keeps reserves below 75 hours. The company will not be able to afford building a lot of uproductive, min credit trips, because of staffing. So one of the few advantages of adtg is effectively nullified.
The other previous advantage of adtg, which will also be nullified with the 4 hrs min credit and pay is....adtg does protect a pilot to a small degree, if a pilots 30 hr overnight cancels, that pilot would still get the adtg credit regardless. Under ONLY 4 hrs pay (pre-ADTG time), that pilot would lose the pay, since it was not flown. Where this advantage gets wiped away is when you compare adtg to 4 hrs min day pay & CREDIT. no lost pay, or credit anymore. So the two primary advantages of adtg, are not really advantages at all.
To me, even when they were previously comparing adtg to 4 hrs PAY ONLY(when the MEC was explaining why they chose adtg), the adtg method was still the the worst way. Now, we are comparing 4 hrs pay and credit min day vs adtg, and that is a no-brainer.
This ADTG crap was even presented to us pilots as a means to an end. That end.....is 4 hrs pay & credit min day....which would occur 12 months after adtg implementation. Multiple MEC members have admitted privately that they knew adtg was a bad deal, but it was only done to protect us from the arbitration, and that in 12 months we can switch to WHAT WE WANTED IN OUR CONTRACT ALL ALONG........4 hrs min pay and credit. NOT ADTG. This to me is the biggest issue. Why are we backing down from what our pilots originally asked for in our new contract?
And now, here we are, having adtg sold to us again? I know they have to present the numbers for both methods, but that presentation seemed very slanted, in my opinion. It certainly did not paint a complete and accurate picture.
The other previous advantage of adtg, which will also be nullified with the 4 hrs min credit and pay is....adtg does protect a pilot to a small degree, if a pilots 30 hr overnight cancels, that pilot would still get the adtg credit regardless. Under ONLY 4 hrs pay (pre-ADTG time), that pilot would lose the pay, since it was not flown. Where this advantage gets wiped away is when you compare adtg to 4 hrs min day pay & CREDIT. no lost pay, or credit anymore. So the two primary advantages of adtg, are not really advantages at all.
To me, even when they were previously comparing adtg to 4 hrs PAY ONLY(when the MEC was explaining why they chose adtg), the adtg method was still the the worst way. Now, we are comparing 4 hrs pay and credit min day vs adtg, and that is a no-brainer.
This ADTG crap was even presented to us pilots as a means to an end. That end.....is 4 hrs pay & credit min day....which would occur 12 months after adtg implementation. Multiple MEC members have admitted privately that they knew adtg was a bad deal, but it was only done to protect us from the arbitration, and that in 12 months we can switch to WHAT WE WANTED IN OUR CONTRACT ALL ALONG........4 hrs min pay and credit. NOT ADTG. This to me is the biggest issue. Why are we backing down from what our pilots originally asked for in our new contract?
And now, here we are, having adtg sold to us again? I know they have to present the numbers for both methods, but that presentation seemed very slanted, in my opinion. It certainly did not paint a complete and accurate picture.
01-14-2015, 06:00 PM
#5557
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2009
Posts: 175
I would think a Jr person would want the 4 hour pay, but no credit because now they're making money with the ability to make more.
I think the ADTG is kind of a sham because the only thing you're not getting with the 4 hour per calender day is the 4 hrs of credit counting towards your max scheduling credit for the month. The pay is still there.
With the 4:45 those 30 hr layovers can be easily erased by working your butt off the rest of the trip. With a 5 day trip, you can fly 6 hours per day for 4 days and sit for 30 hours eating up a 5th day. With ADTG that trip will count for 24 hrs, but with min 4 hrs per calender day it would pay 28 hrs, but only credit 24 for scheduling purposes.
Example: ADTG - D1=6 hrs D2=6hrs D3(30hr)=0hrs pay, 0 credit D4=6hrs D5=6hrs Total pay = greater of 23:15 or 24:00
4 hr per Day - D1=6 hrs D2=6hrs D3(30hr)=4hrs pay, 0 credit D4=6hrs D5=6hrs Total pay = 28:00 pay for 24:00 credit
The company creates the schedule that fits the departures and arrivals that Delta gives them. The company doesn't care all that much about the 4 hours of pay, they care about the efficiency of getting the most out of every flight crew. I'd say if they're gonna make us fly a lot, then make us sit for 30 hours we might as well get paid for it.
I think the ADTG is kind of a sham because the only thing you're not getting with the 4 hour per calender day is the 4 hrs of credit counting towards your max scheduling credit for the month. The pay is still there.
With the 4:45 those 30 hr layovers can be easily erased by working your butt off the rest of the trip. With a 5 day trip, you can fly 6 hours per day for 4 days and sit for 30 hours eating up a 5th day. With ADTG that trip will count for 24 hrs, but with min 4 hrs per calender day it would pay 28 hrs, but only credit 24 for scheduling purposes.
Example: ADTG - D1=6 hrs D2=6hrs D3(30hr)=0hrs pay, 0 credit D4=6hrs D5=6hrs Total pay = greater of 23:15 or 24:00
4 hr per Day - D1=6 hrs D2=6hrs D3(30hr)=4hrs pay, 0 credit D4=6hrs D5=6hrs Total pay = 28:00 pay for 24:00 credit
The company creates the schedule that fits the departures and arrivals that Delta gives them. The company doesn't care all that much about the 4 hours of pay, they care about the efficiency of getting the most out of every flight crew. I'd say if they're gonna make us fly a lot, then make us sit for 30 hours we might as well get paid for it.
01-14-2015, 06:33 PM
#5558
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2009
Position: Middle Seat
Posts: 1,233
Reserve credit leveling does its' job well, it keeps reserves below 75 hours. The company will not be able to afford building a lot of uproductive, min credit trips, because of staffing. So one of the few advantages of adtg is effectively nullified.
The other previous advantage of adtg, which will also be nullified with the 4 hrs min credit and pay is....adtg does protect a pilot to a small degree, if a pilots 30 hr overnight cancels, that pilot would still get the adtg credit regardless. Under ONLY 4 hrs pay (pre-ADTG time), that pilot would lose the pay, since it was not flown. Where this advantage gets wiped away is when you compare adtg to 4 hrs min day pay & CREDIT. no lost pay, or credit anymore. So the two primary advantages of adtg, are not really advantages at all.
To me, even when they were previously comparing adtg to 4 hrs PAY ONLY(when the MEC was explaining why they chose adtg), the adtg method was still the the worst way. Now, we are comparing 4 hrs pay and credit min day vs adtg, and that is a no-brainer.
This ADTG crap was even presented to us pilots as a means to an end. That end.....is 4 hrs pay & credit min day....which would occur 12 months after adtg implementation. Multiple MEC members have admitted privately that they knew adtg was a bad deal, but it was only done to protect us from the arbitration, and that in 12 months we can switch to WHAT WE WANTED IN OUR CONTRACT ALL ALONG........4 hrs min pay and credit. NOT ADTG. This to me is the biggest issue. Why are we backing down from what our pilots originally asked for in our new contract?
And now, here we are, having adtg sold to us again? I know they have to present the numbers for both methods, but that presentation seemed very slanted, in my opinion. It certainly did not paint a complete and accurate picture.
The other previous advantage of adtg, which will also be nullified with the 4 hrs min credit and pay is....adtg does protect a pilot to a small degree, if a pilots 30 hr overnight cancels, that pilot would still get the adtg credit regardless. Under ONLY 4 hrs pay (pre-ADTG time), that pilot would lose the pay, since it was not flown. Where this advantage gets wiped away is when you compare adtg to 4 hrs min day pay & CREDIT. no lost pay, or credit anymore. So the two primary advantages of adtg, are not really advantages at all.
To me, even when they were previously comparing adtg to 4 hrs PAY ONLY(when the MEC was explaining why they chose adtg), the adtg method was still the the worst way. Now, we are comparing 4 hrs pay and credit min day vs adtg, and that is a no-brainer.
This ADTG crap was even presented to us pilots as a means to an end. That end.....is 4 hrs pay & credit min day....which would occur 12 months after adtg implementation. Multiple MEC members have admitted privately that they knew adtg was a bad deal, but it was only done to protect us from the arbitration, and that in 12 months we can switch to WHAT WE WANTED IN OUR CONTRACT ALL ALONG........4 hrs min pay and credit. NOT ADTG. This to me is the biggest issue. Why are we backing down from what our pilots originally asked for in our new contract?
And now, here we are, having adtg sold to us again? I know they have to present the numbers for both methods, but that presentation seemed very slanted, in my opinion. It certainly did not paint a complete and accurate picture.
Honestly I don't even know why there's much of a discussion about this. As for what I remember, ADTG was a source of pride for an MEC member that is no longer with the airline. Why not keep what was negotiated for in the first place?
ADTG would be OK if we had a lot of unproductive trips AND we were fat on pilots AND line holders were only flying a min 75. However in the current state of the airline, and for the foreseeable future, pilots are going to be flying their butts off. To that end ADTG is pointless, so I'd hope that in the few chances that we have a nonflying day we would at least get paid 4 hours.
01-14-2015, 06:42 PM
#5559
*********
Joined APC: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,068
These are individually issued and your signature is required. It is not required to look up an MEL on the existing EFB, that is secured to the airplane.
01-14-2015, 07:35 PM
#5560
Line Holder
Joined APC: Sep 2007
Posts: 70
Reserve credit leveling does its' job well, it keeps reserves below 75 hours. The company will not be able to afford building a lot of uproductive, min credit trips, because of staffing. So one of the few advantages of adtg is effectively nullified.
The other previous advantage of adtg, which will also be nullified with the 4 hrs min credit and pay is....adtg does protect a pilot to a small degree, if a pilots 30 hr overnight cancels, that pilot would still get the adtg credit regardless. Under ONLY 4 hrs pay (pre-ADTG time), that pilot would lose the pay, since it was not flown. Where this advantage gets wiped away is when you compare adtg to 4 hrs min day pay & CREDIT. no lost pay, or credit anymore. So the two primary advantages of adtg, are not really advantages at all.
To me, even when they were previously comparing adtg to 4 hrs PAY ONLY(when the MEC was explaining why they chose adtg), the adtg method was still the the worst way. Now, we are comparing 4 hrs pay and credit min day vs adtg, and that is a no-brainer.
This ADTG crap was even presented to us pilots as a means to an end. That end.....is 4 hrs pay & credit min day....which would occur 12 months after adtg implementation. Multiple MEC members have admitted privately that they knew adtg was a bad deal, but it was only done to protect us from the arbitration, and that in 12 months we can switch to WHAT WE WANTED IN OUR CONTRACT ALL ALONG........4 hrs min pay and credit. NOT ADTG. This to me is the biggest issue. Why are we backing down from what our pilots originally asked for in our new contract?
And now, here we are, having adtg sold to us again? I know they have to present the numbers for both methods, but that presentation seemed very slanted, in my opinion. It certainly did not paint a complete and accurate picture.
The other previous advantage of adtg, which will also be nullified with the 4 hrs min credit and pay is....adtg does protect a pilot to a small degree, if a pilots 30 hr overnight cancels, that pilot would still get the adtg credit regardless. Under ONLY 4 hrs pay (pre-ADTG time), that pilot would lose the pay, since it was not flown. Where this advantage gets wiped away is when you compare adtg to 4 hrs min day pay & CREDIT. no lost pay, or credit anymore. So the two primary advantages of adtg, are not really advantages at all.
To me, even when they were previously comparing adtg to 4 hrs PAY ONLY(when the MEC was explaining why they chose adtg), the adtg method was still the the worst way. Now, we are comparing 4 hrs pay and credit min day vs adtg, and that is a no-brainer.
This ADTG crap was even presented to us pilots as a means to an end. That end.....is 4 hrs pay & credit min day....which would occur 12 months after adtg implementation. Multiple MEC members have admitted privately that they knew adtg was a bad deal, but it was only done to protect us from the arbitration, and that in 12 months we can switch to WHAT WE WANTED IN OUR CONTRACT ALL ALONG........4 hrs min pay and credit. NOT ADTG. This to me is the biggest issue. Why are we backing down from what our pilots originally asked for in our new contract?
And now, here we are, having adtg sold to us again? I know they have to present the numbers for both methods, but that presentation seemed very slanted, in my opinion. It certainly did not paint a complete and accurate picture.
Everyone's situation is different. I'm local and prefer shorter trips, which has benefited more from adtg then 4 min calendar day and I've also done plenty of 12 hr 4 day trips when junior that would only be 16 hrs with min calendar day instead of 19 with adtg.
Everyone do your own math to make sure this is what you want.
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