Schwartz

I don't know who you went through the contract with but pretty much everything you said is totally false

Mesabah

What's false about it? It sounds correct to me, at least that is what I read from their agreement. If a senior pilot elected to stay at compass, he retained protected status. This was allowed, but not to exceed 10% of the list.

Ftrooppilot

Even though they were selected (possibly given a NWA seniority number) did they leave Mesaba employment and enter NWA training ? Word is there are some delays.

Superpilot92

There are many other factors and provisions that are in place to protect the NWA pilots. The compass flow agreement was written to heavily benefit the NWA pilots if needed which in turn allowed some scope relief. Hopefully a flowback isnt necessary and this conversation is made pointless. On a positive note, the flow agreement acts as a deterrence to furloughs because of the added costs associated with re-training flowbacks at compass and the trickle down displacements. Especially when NWA and DAL are in cash savings mode and any furloughs would be short lived with the aircraft deliveries coming to both NWA and DAL in the near future.


See above in red

Superpilot92

They went to training at NWA. I had a Mesaba flowthrough in my new hire class. Also after the last "official" class was held at NWA there was another "class" of only a couple Mesaba guys that were held back and actually have seniority numbers from earlier in the year. I think by the time they actually started here their seniority numbers already held the bus so they avoided the 9 and the panel and went straight to the bus.

LoudFastRules

I think it's important to re-emphasize one of Superpilot92's point, one which is often overlooked.

The flowthrough isn't as much about giving a place for furloughed NWA pilots to go as to FINALLY adding a cost to the concept of "furloughing" to discourage NWA management from considering it. That is also why it is not very easy for NWA to sell Compass, thus preventing the easiest solution to the furlough cost.

It would be very expensive for NWA to furlough pilots because of the fairly large costs incurred at Compass for training/displacement.

That doesn't mean NWA won't furlough, just that they'd really have to think about it.

I know our careers could be better, but the flowthrough agreements at Compass and Mesaba (which is perhaps a better model when dealing with established regionals with a fairly high percentage of senior guys who might not care to flow) are an indication that some pilot groups are starting to think of the bigger picture.

WIPilot

just a thought....wouldnt the easist solution to furlough cost just be to get rid of compass?

I'm not advocating it, just dont understand how in your point compass is both the easiest solution to the furlough cost...and why furloughs cost so much. To me it makes sense about the added cost, but they cant be both really considering if they got rid of compass then in the case of a nwa furlough the guys would just be on the street?

1215police

Originally Posted by Mesabah
What's false about it? It sounds correct to me, at least that is what I read from their agreement. If a senior pilot elected to stay at compass, he retained protected status. This was allowed, but not to exceed 10% of the list.


This is true... "protected status" will be established if a pilot is offered flowthrough but does not accept.

To date, no CPZ pilot has been offered flowthrough so there are no CPZ pilots with protected status.

INAV8OR

B. Flow Down Rights
1. All NWA pilots covered under A.1 above shall have the right to flow down to pilot positions at Feeder Carrier Affiliate. Feeder Carrier Affiliate preferences will be incorporated into the current NWA Crew Resources EPL process pursuant to the NWA /ALPA Pilot Agreement.
2. For purposes of flowing down into a pilot position at the FEEDER CARRIER AFFILIATE, all NWA pilots:
a. shall be considered senior to all FEEDER CARRIER AFFILIATE Pilots (See D. below); and
b. shall be ranked among themselves on the FEEDER CARRIER AFFILIATE Pilots Seniority List in order of their seniority at NWA.
3. The FEEDER CARRIER AFFILIATE will make all reasonable efforts to facilitate and expedite the flow down of NWA pilots to the FEEDER CARRIER AFFILIATE, however both parties recognize that the timing of this flow down process may be limited by the available training capacity. Unless waived by the FEEDER CARRIER AFFILIATE, the number of NWA pilots who flow down from NWA in any bid month shall not exceed available training capacity. For each bid period in which NWA flow down pilots are awaiting training, the FEEDER CARRIER AFFILIATE will commit all available training capacity to the training of the flow down of NWA pilots which is not otherwise needed in the normal course for IQ, RQ, and CQ training of FEEDER CARRIER AFFILIATE pilots. For the purposes of this provision, “available training capacity” means training capacity owned or controlled (e.g. long-term capital lease) by the FEEDER CARRIER AFFILIATE. If the FEEDER CARRIER AFFILIATE does not own or control training devices, and is not training for new aircraft deliveries, the FEEDER CARRIER AFFILIATE will obtain training capacity sufficient to conduct the training of at least 20 NWA flow down pilots per month. The Parties recognize that this provision may result in junior pilots flying at the FEEDER CARRIER AFFILIATE while senior pilots are awaiting training. No pilot will be paid by the FEEDER CARRIER AFFILIATE while awaiting his first initial training. With respect to the assignment of pilots to such training, crews need not be balanced (e.g. All 20 trainees could be captains) and all training slots shall be filled so as to expedite the training of the flow down NWA pilots.
31-253
Section 31 – Letters of Agreement July 31, 2006
ection 30 – Scheduling Rules - Appendix 1
C. Election Not To Flow Down
Only under the following-listed limited circumstances shall a furloughed NWA pilots covered under A.1 above have no further rights to employment at the FEEDER CARRIER AFFILIATE or to any other benefits of this Flow Through Agreement. Such furloughed NWA pilots shall, however, retain all rights pursuant to the NW/ALPA Pilot Agreement including their Recall rights to NWA mainline flying at the company.
A furloughed NWA pilot who:
1. elects not to accept pilot employment at the FEEDER CARRIER AFFILIATE; or
2. does not elect to flow down to the FEEDER CARRIER AFFILIATE in a timely manner as is hereinafter provided; or
3. initially accepts but later declines the offer of pilot employment at the FEEDER CARRIER AFFILIATE; or
4. fails to appear for pilot training at the FEEDER CARRIER AFFILIATE as scheduled; or
5. fails to complete his systems validation (SV) in a timely manner prior to the start of his initial flight training at the FEEDER CARRIER AFFILIATE; The FEEDER CARRIER AFFILIATE and ALPA will meet and define “timely”, however it should allow Training Scheduling adequate time to reassign such pilot’s training; or
6. fails or withdraws from pilot training at the FEEDER CARRIER AFFILIATE after being provided remediation opportunities, provided, however that nothing herein is intended to disadvantage a NWA pilot who temporarily withdraws or is withdrawn from training due to a leave (e.g. military, medical, family, bereavement, etc); or
7. resigns from pilot employment at the FEEDER CARRIER AFFILIATE or whose just cause discharge there from is upheld by the System Board of Adjustment; or
8. otherwise fails to continue in the service of the FEEDER CARRIER AFFILIATE as a pilot,
shall have no further rights to employment at the FEEDER CARRIER AFFILIATE or to any other benefits of this Flow Through Agreement.
D. Protected Rights of Feeder Carrier Affiliate Pilots (Not furloughed NWA pilots working at Feeder Carrier Affiliate)
1. Not later than forty-five (45) days after their notification of an employment opportunity at NWA (see H. below), FEEDER CARRIER AFFILIATE pilots may elect “protected rights status” and permanently forfeit the NWA employment 31-254
Section 31 – Letters of Agreement July 31, 2006
ection 30 – Scheduling Rules - Appendix 1
opportunity provided by this letter by submitting a written notice. FEEDER CARRIER AFFILIATE pilots who elect protected rights status will not be subject to flow down by NWA pilots, i.e., cannot be bumped by NWA pilots. Any FEEDER CARRIER AFFILIATE who elects protected rights status is required to forfeit his recall rights he may hold at other airlines.
2. The ratio of seniority positions preserved for NWA pilots on the FEEDER CARRIER AFFILIATE seniority list as compared to the number of “protected rights status” positions shall be determined through the process for concluding the first FEEDER CARRIER AFFILIATE CBA and shall be incorporated into this NWA-ALPA Flow Through Agreement. This ratio shall not thereafter be reduced.
3. Protected rights FEEDER CARRIER AFFILIATE pilots shall be senior at the FEEDER CARRIER AFFILIATE to any pilot flowing down from NWA subsequent to their employment at the FEEDER CARRIER AFFILIATE.

Superpilot92

NWA cant just sell Compass, there are provisions to keep that from happening until Compass reaches a specific size. (I dont have that info in front of me). Also i contacted my union rep about this and he said that right now NWA has no intention on selling compass anytime soon anyway. It appears that the majors are realizing that its better to keep the flying and more importantly the money in house.


Exactly!! By having this in place it keeps the mgmt teams from furloughing first and thinking later.