Compass Updates 2: Revenge of the Sit
03-15-2019, 05:33 AM
#1791
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2014
Posts: 1,186
The downside is if you are interested in Frontier, meet their requirements, but not senior enough to flow then you can't apply at Frontier and that sucks. If all they flow is two a month like TSA, you are likely to see more people hired there without the flow than with it. Frontier is hiring a lot right now. TSA had several guys with apps there who were contacted and told they could not be hired outside the flow now that it is in place. Apparently TSH put language in the contract that forbids it. If it was up to Frontier they would hire outside the flow as well, which lends credence to the view that this flow is more about controlling attrition to Frontier than anything else, particularly at TSA as we have a DEN base.
I must either not be paying attention or just don’t really care but TSA has a flow to Frontier as well?
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03-15-2019, 06:18 AM
#1792
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2017
Posts: 570
If they can't hire us outside the flow it will slow down movement at CP. I know of 2 people going there as it is, without flow, plus whoever I don't know of.
03-15-2019, 06:53 AM
#1793
Perennial Reserve
Joined APC: Jan 2018
Posts: 12,121
If this clears out either two or four of our most senior people who have otherwise been unable to get to a major each month it is a win for everybody beneath them which is MOST of us. Flowing 24-48 people a year WHO WOULD HAVE OTHERWISE NOT MOVED is a win for them and would increase everybody else’s chances of getting to the other majors in a more timely manner.
Anybody who seriously wanted to go to Frontier and NO PLACE ELSE. could do a short DEC tour at another regional, take the bonus and the new type-rating, and be heading for Frontier shortly after IOE.
This isn’t your father’s airline hiring environment.
03-15-2019, 07:17 AM
#1794
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2017
Posts: 570
Historically they had a horrible contract. Now that it changed people have been applying
03-15-2019, 07:41 AM
#1795
Perennial Reserve
Joined APC: Jan 2018
Posts: 12,121
That’s true. And it still isn’t great. Even the Frontier pilots acknowledge it is industry lagging but probably the best they could do. And as a new contract, they are probably going to be locked in to that industry lagging pay for 6-7 years, not that it’s not a lot better than regional pay I’ll grant you.
That’s true too, but it doesn’t change either the historical reality of where we have sent people or the fact that we are approaching a time of unprecedented mandatory retirements in the legacies.
Except for some small fraction of our pilots who WANTED FRONTIER EXCLUSIVELY or at least one of the bases Frontier serves, it is still a positive. For those few people, it’s a negative they can rapidly overcome.
That’s true too, but it doesn’t change either the historical reality of where we have sent people or the fact that we are approaching a time of unprecedented mandatory retirements in the legacies.
Except for some small fraction of our pilots who WANTED FRONTIER EXCLUSIVELY or at least one of the bases Frontier serves, it is still a positive. For those few people, it’s a negative they can rapidly overcome.
03-15-2019, 08:39 AM
#1796
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2017
Posts: 174
i disagree. Historically we have sent less than ten percent of our attrition to frontier. Even just two a month is 10% of our monthly attrition.
If this clears out either two or four of our most senior people who have otherwise been unable to get to a major each month it is a win for everybody beneath them which is most of us. Flowing 24-48 people a year who would have otherwise not moved is a win for them and would increase everybody else’s chances of getting to the other majors in a more timely manner.
Anybody who seriously wanted to go to frontier and no place else. Could do a short dec tour at another regional, take the bonus and the new type-rating, and be heading for frontier shortly after ioe.
This isn’t your father’s airline hiring environment.
If this clears out either two or four of our most senior people who have otherwise been unable to get to a major each month it is a win for everybody beneath them which is most of us. Flowing 24-48 people a year who would have otherwise not moved is a win for them and would increase everybody else’s chances of getting to the other majors in a more timely manner.
Anybody who seriously wanted to go to frontier and no place else. Could do a short dec tour at another regional, take the bonus and the new type-rating, and be heading for frontier shortly after ioe.
This isn’t your father’s airline hiring environment.
03-15-2019, 03:45 PM
#1797
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2017
Posts: 516
I respectfully disagree in this case.
The flow agreement completely blocks pilots from going to Frontier outside of the flow. This means from now on any compass guys who may want to “escape” somewhere respectable in the future have one less place to go.
Yes, some guys will go, but 2 a month? We have had more people leave in one month than this would move all year. TSH will never let us flow more than 2 a month, it’s expensive. Also, it’s in seniority order, so even though many will take the bypass(which is also rigid and restrictive), it will take years to flow any current mid-level seniority pilots.
By the time the ‘flow’ reaches anyone who’s currently an FO at this company, compass will (likely) be long gone. And when that axe falls, now we have one less place to go, especially us CAs that would have otherwise been competitive when applying.
I don’t know. The way I see it, I like F9 and was planning to try for them once I check my 1000 tpic box at compass. Now I can’t go to F9. That means I’m that much more likely to be in OO newhire class in 2021 if I can’t move on before then. Certainly looks bad from where I’m standing
If we signed a flow agreement to DL that flowed 3 a month and blocked all other applicants, this place would be a dumpster fire, after all.
IF you’re one of the 5-year captains here, though, that is so unlikeble that you’ve already been turned down by the mainline HR panels, then this is a great deal for you.
Again, I mean that all respectfully, just my 2 cents
The flow agreement completely blocks pilots from going to Frontier outside of the flow. This means from now on any compass guys who may want to “escape” somewhere respectable in the future have one less place to go.
Yes, some guys will go, but 2 a month? We have had more people leave in one month than this would move all year. TSH will never let us flow more than 2 a month, it’s expensive. Also, it’s in seniority order, so even though many will take the bypass(which is also rigid and restrictive), it will take years to flow any current mid-level seniority pilots.
By the time the ‘flow’ reaches anyone who’s currently an FO at this company, compass will (likely) be long gone. And when that axe falls, now we have one less place to go, especially us CAs that would have otherwise been competitive when applying.
I don’t know. The way I see it, I like F9 and was planning to try for them once I check my 1000 tpic box at compass. Now I can’t go to F9. That means I’m that much more likely to be in OO newhire class in 2021 if I can’t move on before then. Certainly looks bad from where I’m standing
If we signed a flow agreement to DL that flowed 3 a month and blocked all other applicants, this place would be a dumpster fire, after all.
IF you’re one of the 5-year captains here, though, that is so unlikeble that you’ve already been turned down by the mainline HR panels, then this is a great deal for you.
Again, I mean that all respectfully, just my 2 cents
03-15-2019, 04:48 PM
#1798
Perennial Reserve
Joined APC: Jan 2018
Posts: 12,121
I respectfully disagree in this case.
The flow agreement completely blocks pilots from going to Frontier outside of the flow. This means from now on any compass guys who may want to “escape” somewhere respectable in the future have one less place to go.
By the time the ‘flow’ reaches anyone who’s currently an FO at this company, compass will (likely) be long gone. And when that axe falls, now we have one less place to go, especially us CAs that would have otherwise been competitive when applying.
I don’t know. The way I see it, I like F9 and was planning to try for them once I check my 1000 tpic box at compass. Now I can’t go to F9. That means I’m that much more likely to be in OO newhire class in 2021 if I can’t move on before then. Certainly looks bad from where I’m standing
The flow agreement completely blocks pilots from going to Frontier outside of the flow. This means from now on any compass guys who may want to “escape” somewhere respectable in the future have one less place to go.
By the time the ‘flow’ reaches anyone who’s currently an FO at this company, compass will (likely) be long gone. And when that axe falls, now we have one less place to go, especially us CAs that would have otherwise been competitive when applying.
I don’t know. The way I see it, I like F9 and was planning to try for them once I check my 1000 tpic box at compass. Now I can’t go to F9. That means I’m that much more likely to be in OO newhire class in 2021 if I can’t move on before then. Certainly looks bad from where I’m standing
That doesn’t even SORT OF make sense. If Compass went away, so would the alleged restriction to two a month.
You would then be no more or less competitive for a CJO from F9 in that event than you would have been had the flow restriction never existed. And as a captain with a lot of hours, and if you can’t block 85 a month all summer you aren’t trying very hard, you can get that ‘golden’ 1000 TPIC pretty quick, you would be highly competitive with them. Then you can leave.
Go to OO if you want, or better yet go somewhere that will give you a DEC bonus and put in your app from there. If you were truly competitive for F9 anyway, they’ll give you an offer by the time you are done with IOE, and you can take the upfront money and new type rating and run with it.
You and I have had this sort of a conversation before, week, and we just see things differently. You want a no risk pathway, h€||, we ALL want a no risk pathway, but that isn’t realistic.
Generally there is always a risk reward payoff, and I guess I’m a stock market sort of investor and you are a US Savings Bonds sort of guy. That’s OK, some people can’t handle volatility and some people can’t tell the difference between investing and gambling and sometimes through no fault of your own you get burned no matter what you do, as happened to a lot of people lost in the lost decade. And I know through no fault of your own you wound up the plug for an unfortunately long time.
But right now we have fair winds and favorable seas and we need to make the best of them. Glad you upgraded, now get those hours and get your apps in. If Frontier was your first choice and this slows you up, I’m sorry the fickle finger of fate screwed you again, but there are at least six perfectly acceptable targets of opportunity out there you can apply to. Good luck.
03-15-2019, 08:39 PM
#1799
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2011
Position: Taco Rocket Operator
Posts: 2,485
TSA has had a flow to Frontier for quite a while. Went pretty junior at first but is very senior since the new contract came out. Our DO is flowing to Frontier in June.
03-16-2019, 08:46 AM
#1800
Perennial Reserve
Joined APC: Jan 2018
Posts: 12,121
Will it be the summer if the Captain Crunch?
Will it be the summer of the Captain Crunch?
It's been 18 months or so now since the $17.5K hiring bonus. That bonus wasn't out of the goodness of management's heart (unfortunately) it's because we weren't filling classes. And when we did start filling classes it seemed like everyone in the whole damn world was filling 175 classes and sim and instructor availability became an issue. So the throughput to getting those newbie's on the line got somewhat lengthened even though we eventually did fill all those classes.
In reaction to last summer's FO shortage, management kicked around the idea of CQFOs, slowed upgrades, and cancelled or deferred vacations and we made it through, not without a little angst. But fast forward another year, and we'll be facing summer flying again.
Now FOs ought not to be a problem, we are pretty much caught up, but the vast majority of our attrition is captains moving on. The "new" guys hired at the start of the summer of 2018 probably took three months or so to go through their initial training, meaning they have been on the line now for maybe seven months.
At 75 hours a month, they ought to have 600 hours or so, probably not much more than that since they will have pulled a month of reserve or so. Now the guys who were hired in the previous nine months after the bonus have more, in fact some ought to have about a thousand hours, but for some of them (and I have no idea just how many) that won't be enough because they came on board with 1500 TT or less and 25 hours of ME and are still not at company minima for upgrade in terms of either ME time or TT.
It looks to me like the FO crunch of last year stands a pretty good chance of becoming a captain crunch this year.
Anyone for crib pay?
It's been 18 months or so now since the $17.5K hiring bonus. That bonus wasn't out of the goodness of management's heart (unfortunately) it's because we weren't filling classes. And when we did start filling classes it seemed like everyone in the whole damn world was filling 175 classes and sim and instructor availability became an issue. So the throughput to getting those newbie's on the line got somewhat lengthened even though we eventually did fill all those classes.
In reaction to last summer's FO shortage, management kicked around the idea of CQFOs, slowed upgrades, and cancelled or deferred vacations and we made it through, not without a little angst. But fast forward another year, and we'll be facing summer flying again.
Now FOs ought not to be a problem, we are pretty much caught up, but the vast majority of our attrition is captains moving on. The "new" guys hired at the start of the summer of 2018 probably took three months or so to go through their initial training, meaning they have been on the line now for maybe seven months.
At 75 hours a month, they ought to have 600 hours or so, probably not much more than that since they will have pulled a month of reserve or so. Now the guys who were hired in the previous nine months after the bonus have more, in fact some ought to have about a thousand hours, but for some of them (and I have no idea just how many) that won't be enough because they came on board with 1500 TT or less and 25 hours of ME and are still not at company minima for upgrade in terms of either ME time or TT.
It looks to me like the FO crunch of last year stands a pretty good chance of becoming a captain crunch this year.
Anyone for crib pay?
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