Seniority / CPP / Aircraft - Info
07-29-2018, 10:20 AM
#391
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2015
Position: B777 CA
Posts: 753
The upward movement is mind numbing. My friend isn’t even out of commutair training, yet he has over 35 pilots beneath him. That’s 10% of the pilot group. At United that would take 3 - 5 years. In the past that could take a decade or more in a bad economic cycle.
I’ve been in this industry as an airline pilot for almost 35 years. I can remember in the early to mid 90’s needing several thousand hours and 500 multi to get a regional job. Then there was pay for training. Pay 10K for a 18K turboprop job.
This generation of pilots are very fortunate!
I’ve been in this industry as an airline pilot for almost 35 years. I can remember in the early to mid 90’s needing several thousand hours and 500 multi to get a regional job. Then there was pay for training. Pay 10K for a 18K turboprop job.
This generation of pilots are very fortunate!
07-29-2018, 01:14 PM
#392
Line Holder
Joined APC: Apr 2018
Posts: 70
07-29-2018, 01:27 PM
#393
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2009
Posts: 511
A lot of the pilots that you are calling fortunate are the ones that have been pilots for many years and left the industry due to low wages. A lot of these pilots now showing up had paid for flight training and could not find a way to get paid well enough in this industry years ago, so they left the industry. Now that the pay has returned to a wage that can now support them, they are returning.
As ALPA stated, there was not a pilot shortage. There was and still is a pay shortage. I bet the wages will continue to rise and we will see more pilots coming out of the woodwork.
The airlines that are still having issues getting new hires in the door are the ones that are still attempting to not raise pay or bonuses. As of right now, we are attracting pilots with our bonus and the Dash CA rates for second year FO's. It is nice when second year pay jumps up to $55/hr as an FO and it looks like we are back to previous 121 peeps upgrading in about 6 months and making $66/hr.
As ALPA stated, there was not a pilot shortage. There was and still is a pay shortage. I bet the wages will continue to rise and we will see more pilots coming out of the woodwork.
The airlines that are still having issues getting new hires in the door are the ones that are still attempting to not raise pay or bonuses. As of right now, we are attracting pilots with our bonus and the Dash CA rates for second year FO's. It is nice when second year pay jumps up to $55/hr as an FO and it looks like we are back to previous 121 peeps upgrading in about 6 months and making $66/hr.
07-29-2018, 02:42 PM
#394
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2015
Position: B777 CA
Posts: 753
A lot of the pilots that you are calling fortunate are the ones that have been pilots for many years and left the industry due to low wages. A lot of these pilots now showing up had paid for flight training and could not find a way to get paid well enough in this industry years ago, so they left the industry. Now that the pay has returned to a wage that can now support them, they are returning.
As ALPA stated, there was not a pilot shortage. There was and still is a pay shortage. I bet the wages will continue to rise and we will see more pilots coming out of the woodwork.
The airlines that are still having issues getting new hires in the door are the ones that are still attempting to not raise pay or bonuses. As of right now, we are attracting pilots with our bonus and the Dash CA rates for second year FO's. It is nice when second year pay jumps up to $55/hr as an FO and it looks like we are back to previous 121 peeps upgrading in about 6 months and making $66/hr.
As ALPA stated, there was not a pilot shortage. There was and still is a pay shortage. I bet the wages will continue to rise and we will see more pilots coming out of the woodwork.
The airlines that are still having issues getting new hires in the door are the ones that are still attempting to not raise pay or bonuses. As of right now, we are attracting pilots with our bonus and the Dash CA rates for second year FO's. It is nice when second year pay jumps up to $55/hr as an FO and it looks like we are back to previous 121 peeps upgrading in about 6 months and making $66/hr.
From a 20 year ALPA volunteer and 5 year ALPA CA Rep and former member of the ALPA BOD, I call BS on the ALPA pilot pay shortage mantra.
ALPA has to say that due internal politics. ALPA is an immense political entity. After all how many thousands of RJ pilots do they represent that are waiting to get mainline jobs? Today it’s still very difficult to get a mainline job without a flow or CPP. So ALPA has to say that, I get it.
There is a impending global pilot shortage the likes that has never been seen before that’s going to hit the legacies in the next five years. United and SWA have stated they don’t know who there going to hire in five to ten years.
You are correct that some pilots are coming back to the industry who have been absent for a long period. It’s not due to the regional pay, but that does make it more paletable and easier to make the career jump no doubt. They are coming back to get a Legacy mainline job not a regional job. Additionally, a big reason they left the industry was due to the post 9/11 lost decade that included massive furloughs, age 65 which collectively lead to massive stagnation at the regionals. It’s also why less new young pilots entered the industry.
I have a simulator and career counseling- pilot mentoring business and I see evidence of what I stated above everyday. The majority of new hires at regionals are younger pilots just entering the industry and they are enjoying amazingly good fortune and I’m truly happy for them.
Before 9/11 most civilian pilots had to flight instruct for several years, fly charter or single pilot night freight for a few years before getting a 19 seat turbo prop or 30 seat Commuter Airline Job. That’s what regionals were called then. Most commutair aircraft had to be hand flown no autopilots. Pay was patehic, as low or lower (inflation adusted) then Regional pay before “Alpa’s Pay Shortage” significantly raised current regional pay.
Again, I’m truly happy new pilots entering the industry have it so much better then we did twenty to thirty plus years ago, But don’t try to paint something that’s not true. Years ago pilots had to pay their dues to a much higher degree and under much harsher and more time consuming conditions then the pilots of today. Oh and when they got the coveted major airline job they had to sit sideways as flight engineers for three to ten years before getting a window seat.
07-29-2018, 05:45 PM
#395
Line Holder
Joined APC: Apr 2018
Posts: 70
Totally agree with Boeing Aviator. The 1500 hour rule did not cause these problems. It only returned things to historic norms while at the same time boosting pay at the regionals across the board. The pilot shortage has been in the making for years. Band-aid fixes like the 65 rule as well as 9/11 and 2008 had prolonged the impact of the shortage for years.
Also, the regionals had an important tool in their arsenal. The ability to hire someone with as little as 250 hours. If the pool of candidates with the desired credentials dried up, they wouldn’t increase pay to attract more individuals. They would simply lower the minimums to a sufficient level to address their staffing needs while keeping wages stagnant. In 2011, American Eagle was hiring guys with 500TT and 100 multi. Before that however guys with 1500 hours were begging for a job to get out of instructing. I believe the same thing happened in the mid-2000s.
That tool has been taken from them now and they want it back. If they were to get it back would it solve things in the short term? Probably. We all know that every CFI with 250 hours would jump ship for a regional. You would see pay (maybe not instantly) return to historic norms and the bonuses would probably be reduced gradually. I wouldn’t be surprised if they did away with bonuses for low time pilots initially because “they lacked experience”.
You have to ask yourself what happens at the student pilot level if all the instructors have bailed. Universities have already come out to speak against getting rid of the rule because they are aware of what that means for them.
The ALPA angle that there’s a lack of pilots willing to work for subpar wages is correct. Which is why you see people that left the industry returning. But I feel like there’s a lack of PEOPLE in general that are willing to work for subpar wages. How many people have been discouraged totally from even pursuing the career over the last 10-20 years?
Has anyone else noticed things have kind of cooled off in relation to pay and sign on bonuses? It seemed like around 2015 to the beginning of this year money was coming from every direction. Every other month pay was being upped at one place only to be leap frogged the next by someone else. I don’t feel like that is happening anymore. Have we hit a ceiling? Would love to know if anyone has noticed anything similar.
Also, the regionals had an important tool in their arsenal. The ability to hire someone with as little as 250 hours. If the pool of candidates with the desired credentials dried up, they wouldn’t increase pay to attract more individuals. They would simply lower the minimums to a sufficient level to address their staffing needs while keeping wages stagnant. In 2011, American Eagle was hiring guys with 500TT and 100 multi. Before that however guys with 1500 hours were begging for a job to get out of instructing. I believe the same thing happened in the mid-2000s.
That tool has been taken from them now and they want it back. If they were to get it back would it solve things in the short term? Probably. We all know that every CFI with 250 hours would jump ship for a regional. You would see pay (maybe not instantly) return to historic norms and the bonuses would probably be reduced gradually. I wouldn’t be surprised if they did away with bonuses for low time pilots initially because “they lacked experience”.
You have to ask yourself what happens at the student pilot level if all the instructors have bailed. Universities have already come out to speak against getting rid of the rule because they are aware of what that means for them.
The ALPA angle that there’s a lack of pilots willing to work for subpar wages is correct. Which is why you see people that left the industry returning. But I feel like there’s a lack of PEOPLE in general that are willing to work for subpar wages. How many people have been discouraged totally from even pursuing the career over the last 10-20 years?
Has anyone else noticed things have kind of cooled off in relation to pay and sign on bonuses? It seemed like around 2015 to the beginning of this year money was coming from every direction. Every other month pay was being upped at one place only to be leap frogged the next by someone else. I don’t feel like that is happening anymore. Have we hit a ceiling? Would love to know if anyone has noticed anything similar.
07-29-2018, 05:48 PM
#396
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2009
Posts: 788
From a 20 year ALPA volunteer and 5 year ALPA CA Rep and former member of the ALPA BOD, I call BS on the ALPA pilot pay shortage mantra.
ALPA has to say that due internal politics. ALPA is an immense political entity. After all how many thousands of RJ pilots do they represent that are waiting to get mainline jobs? Today it’s still very difficult to get a mainline job without a flow or CPP. So ALPA has to say that, I get it.
There is a impending global pilot shortage the likes that has never been seen before that’s going to hit the legacies in the next five years. United and SWA have stated they don’t know who there going to hire in five to ten years.
You are correct that some pilots are coming back to the industry who have been absent for a long period. It’s not due to the regional pay, but that does make it more paletable and easier to make the career jump no doubt. They are coming back to get a Legacy mainline job not a regional job. Additionally, a big reason they left the industry was due to the post 9/11 lost decade that included massive furloughs, age 65 which collectively lead to massive stagnation at the regionals. It’s also why less new young pilots entered the industry.
I have a simulator and career counseling- pilot mentoring business and I see evidence of what I stated above everyday. The majority of new hires at regionals are younger pilots just entering the industry and they are enjoying amazingly good fortune and I’m truly happy for them.
Before 9/11 most civilian pilots had to flight instruct for several years, fly charter or single pilot night freight for a few years before getting a 19 seat turbo prop or 30 seat Commuter Airline Job. That’s what regionals were called then. Most commutair aircraft had to be hand flown no autopilots. Pay was patehic, as low or lower (inflation adusted) then Regional pay before “Alpa’s Pay Shortage” significantly raised current regional pay.
Again, I’m truly happy new pilots entering the industry have it so much better then we did twenty to thirty plus years ago, But don’t try to paint something that’s not true. Years ago pilots had to pay their dues to a much higher degree and under much harsher and more time consuming conditions then the pilots of today. Oh and when they got the coveted major airline job they had to sit sideways as flight engineers for three to ten years before getting a window seat.
ALPA has to say that due internal politics. ALPA is an immense political entity. After all how many thousands of RJ pilots do they represent that are waiting to get mainline jobs? Today it’s still very difficult to get a mainline job without a flow or CPP. So ALPA has to say that, I get it.
There is a impending global pilot shortage the likes that has never been seen before that’s going to hit the legacies in the next five years. United and SWA have stated they don’t know who there going to hire in five to ten years.
You are correct that some pilots are coming back to the industry who have been absent for a long period. It’s not due to the regional pay, but that does make it more paletable and easier to make the career jump no doubt. They are coming back to get a Legacy mainline job not a regional job. Additionally, a big reason they left the industry was due to the post 9/11 lost decade that included massive furloughs, age 65 which collectively lead to massive stagnation at the regionals. It’s also why less new young pilots entered the industry.
I have a simulator and career counseling- pilot mentoring business and I see evidence of what I stated above everyday. The majority of new hires at regionals are younger pilots just entering the industry and they are enjoying amazingly good fortune and I’m truly happy for them.
Before 9/11 most civilian pilots had to flight instruct for several years, fly charter or single pilot night freight for a few years before getting a 19 seat turbo prop or 30 seat Commuter Airline Job. That’s what regionals were called then. Most commutair aircraft had to be hand flown no autopilots. Pay was patehic, as low or lower (inflation adusted) then Regional pay before “Alpa’s Pay Shortage” significantly raised current regional pay.
Again, I’m truly happy new pilots entering the industry have it so much better then we did twenty to thirty plus years ago, But don’t try to paint something that’s not true. Years ago pilots had to pay their dues to a much higher degree and under much harsher and more time consuming conditions then the pilots of today. Oh and when they got the coveted major airline job they had to sit sideways as flight engineers for three to ten years before getting a window seat.
At my first commuter airline job I had almost 5000 hours,( flight instruction,charter,night freight). Still it was made clear that they didn't like that I didn't have any turbine time. In my class of six I was the only one without turbine time. The ground school instructor was ex navy and more than a few line pilots were ex military, including combat experience. All for an airline with 5 airplanes.
Times have very much changed, and like yourself, I am very happy for all currently enjoying it.(including myself).
May it last for a while.
07-29-2018, 09:46 PM
#397
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2015
Posts: 412
I'm one of the guys who gave up post 2008/2009 after flight instructing for 3 years (and getting slammed by the age 65 rule). Decided that moving (again) for a CFI job wasn't worth it and settled down to IT.
If it wasn't starting pay of $40 an hour at the regionals, I wouldn't have bothered getting back into it.
I should also mention I was getting regional interviews with 300 TT back in 2006. I had friends get on with slightly more TT to top tier regionals. I don't doubt for a moment that if it wasn't for the ATP rule, many regionals would be hiring at 500TT currently and fully staffed.
If it wasn't starting pay of $40 an hour at the regionals, I wouldn't have bothered getting back into it.
I should also mention I was getting regional interviews with 300 TT back in 2006. I had friends get on with slightly more TT to top tier regionals. I don't doubt for a moment that if it wasn't for the ATP rule, many regionals would be hiring at 500TT currently and fully staffed.
07-31-2018, 05:29 AM
#398
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Feb 2011
Posts: 399
As of 7/31/2018
Red & Bold = New Information
Junior First Officer:
EWR - New Hire
IAD - 5/31/2018
Junior Captain*:
EWR - 11/28/16
IAD - 10/31/16
*CommutAir has CQFs. The bottom 5% of awarded Captains are CQFs by seniority. This is why there is a discrepancy between upgrade dates listed below, and junior captain date. Junior captain date listed is someone who is holding full Captain, not CQF.
Upgrades:
March: 6
April: 6
May: 10
June: 10 (Junior Award: 4/10/2017)
July: 2 (Junior Award: 6/6/2016)
August: 4 (Junior Award: 3/7/2016)
September: 12 (Junior Award: 5/3/2018)
Junior CA Line Holder:
EWR - 10/03/2016
IAD - 04/04/2016
Junior FO Line Holder:
EWR - 03/19/2018
IAD - 01/02/2018
CPP:
December 2017: 6
January 2018: 3
February 2018: 7
June 2018: 3
July 2018: 3
August 2018: 3
Pilots listed on the seniority list as of July 1st, 2018: 302
Pilots listed on domicile list as of July 18th, 2018: 296
Current list of E145 aircraft on our D085:
Current Destinations by Hub:
EWR:
IAD:
Red & Bold = New Information
Junior First Officer:
EWR - New Hire
IAD - 5/31/2018
Junior Captain*:
EWR - 11/28/16
IAD - 10/31/16
*CommutAir has CQFs. The bottom 5% of awarded Captains are CQFs by seniority. This is why there is a discrepancy between upgrade dates listed below, and junior captain date. Junior captain date listed is someone who is holding full Captain, not CQF.
Upgrades:
March: 6
April: 6
May: 10
June: 10 (Junior Award: 4/10/2017)
July: 2 (Junior Award: 6/6/2016)
August: 4 (Junior Award: 3/7/2016)
September: 12 (Junior Award: 5/3/2018)
Junior CA Line Holder:
EWR - 10/03/2016
IAD - 04/04/2016
Junior FO Line Holder:
EWR - 03/19/2018
IAD - 01/02/2018
CPP:
December 2017: 6
January 2018: 3
February 2018: 7
June 2018: 3
July 2018: 3
August 2018: 3
Pilots listed on the seniority list as of July 1st, 2018: 302
Pilots listed on domicile list as of July 18th, 2018: 296
Current list of E145 aircraft on our D085:
- N11176
- N11181
- N11187
- N11191
- N11193
- N11194
- N11199
- N12157
- N12160
- N12175
- N13161
- N13202
- N14143
- N14162
- N14171
- N14177
- N14179
- N14186
- N14198
- N14204
- N16147
- N16183
- N17169
- N21154
- N21197
- N27190
- N33182
Current Destinations by Hub:
EWR:
- ACK
- ALB
- AVP
- BDL
- BTV
- BUF
- BWI
- CLE
- CMH
- ELM
- GRR
- GSP
- IAD
- IND
- ITH
- JAX
- MEM
- MHT
- ORF
- PVD
- PQI
- PWM
- RIC
- ROC
- SAV
- SDF
- STL
- SYR
IAD:
- ALB
- BDL
- CHO
- EWR
- IND
- JAX
- MDT
- PWM
- RIC
- ROA
- ROC
- SCE
- SDF
- STL
- SYR
07-31-2018, 05:34 AM
#399
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Feb 2011
Posts: 399
As of 7/31/2018
Red & Bold = New Information
Junior First Officer:
EWR - New Hire
IAD - 5/31/2018
Junior Captain*:
EWR - 11/28/16
IAD - 10/31/16
*CommutAir has CQFs. The bottom 5% of awarded Captains are CQFs by seniority. This is why there is a discrepancy between upgrade dates listed below, and junior captain date. Junior captain date listed is someone who is holding full Captain, not CQF.
Upgrades:
March: 6
April: 6
May: 10
June: 10 (Junior Award: 4/10/2017)
July: 2 (Junior Award: 6/6/2016)
August: 4 (Junior Award: 3/7/2016)
September: 12 (Junior Award: 5/3/2018)
Junior CA Line Holder:
EWR - 10/03/2016
IAD - 04/04/2016
Junior FO Line Holder:
EWR - 03/19/2018
IAD - 01/02/2018
CPP:
December 2017: 6
January 2018: 3
February 2018: 7
June 2018: 3
July 2018: 3
August 2018: 3
Pilots listed on the seniority list as of July 1st, 2018: 302
Pilots listed on domicile list as of July 18th, 2018: 296
Current list of E145 aircraft on our D085:
Current Destinations by Hub:
EWR:
IAD:
Red & Bold = New Information
Junior First Officer:
EWR - New Hire
IAD - 5/31/2018
Junior Captain*:
EWR - 11/28/16
IAD - 10/31/16
*CommutAir has CQFs. The bottom 5% of awarded Captains are CQFs by seniority. This is why there is a discrepancy between upgrade dates listed below, and junior captain date. Junior captain date listed is someone who is holding full Captain, not CQF.
Upgrades:
March: 6
April: 6
May: 10
June: 10 (Junior Award: 4/10/2017)
July: 2 (Junior Award: 6/6/2016)
August: 4 (Junior Award: 3/7/2016)
September: 12 (Junior Award: 5/3/2018)
Junior CA Line Holder:
EWR - 10/03/2016
IAD - 04/04/2016
Junior FO Line Holder:
EWR - 03/19/2018
IAD - 01/02/2018
CPP:
December 2017: 6
January 2018: 3
February 2018: 7
June 2018: 3
July 2018: 3
August 2018: 3
Pilots listed on the seniority list as of July 1st, 2018: 302
Pilots listed on domicile list as of July 18th, 2018: 296
Current list of E145 aircraft on our D085:
- N11176
- N11181
- N11187
- N11191
- N11193
- N11194
- N11199
- N12157
- N12160
- N12175
- N13161
- N13202
- N14143
- N14162
- N14171
- N14177
- N14179
- N14186
- N14198
- N14204
- N16147
- N16183
- N17169
- N21154
- N21197
- N27190
- N33182
Current Destinations by Hub:
EWR:
- ACK
- ALB
- AVP
- BDL
- BTV
- BUF
- BWI
- CLE
- CMH
- ELM
- GRR
- GSP
- IAD
- IND
- ITH
- JAX
- MEM
- MHT
- ORF
- PVD
- PQI
- PWM
- RIC
- ROC
- SAV
- SDF
- STL
- SYR
IAD:
- ALB
- BDL
- CHO
- EWR
- IND
- JAX
- MDT
- PWM
- RIC
- ROA
- ROC
- SCE
- SDF
- STL
- SYR
Either way there is definitely a 3/19/2018 hire that has been awarded upgrade.
Last edited by v1valarob; 07-31-2018 at 05:49 AM.
07-31-2018, 10:29 AM
#400
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2009
Posts: 511
Btw... part of me thinks that official award just announced for upgrade is slightly wrong, only because the seniority numbers are in order, except for the May 3rd, 2018 hire, which is out of order. I wouldn't be surprised if there was a correction. But as of now, this is the award.
Either way there is definitely a 3/19/2018 hire that has been awarded upgrade.
Either way there is definitely a 3/19/2018 hire that has been awarded upgrade.
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
