Omni Air Pilot Negotiations update
07-30-2017, 05:55 AM
#181
Line Holder
Joined APC: Jul 2017
Position: 777 all
Posts: 67
Dubious,
Captain Spook or Spock or whatever he calls himself is obviously one of us that can't or is afraid to think for himself so he hides behind the thoughts of labor laws that he more than likely just looked up and wants the NC to do all his thinking for him.
Ok enough about him on to more important things.
You sounding very confident and comfortable in your thought as I am.
I would offer you this Dubious:
1.The NC has done all they can my hats off to them.
2. The NC has to take it up the chain with a recommend to vote.
3. The IBT/Executive( 15 member board ) allow it to a vote.
If 1-3 do not happen than us a Pilot Group must take action to protect ourselves and our lively hood.
Captain Spook or Spock or whatever he calls himself is obviously one of us that can't or is afraid to think for himself so he hides behind the thoughts of labor laws that he more than likely just looked up and wants the NC to do all his thinking for him.
Ok enough about him on to more important things.
You sounding very confident and comfortable in your thought as I am.
I would offer you this Dubious:
1.The NC has done all they can my hats off to them.
2. The NC has to take it up the chain with a recommend to vote.
3. The IBT/Executive( 15 member board ) allow it to a vote.
If 1-3 do not happen than us a Pilot Group must take action to protect ourselves and our lively hood.
The NC and executive board may in fact be able to extract more compensation and enhance work rules through further negotiations. However that does come with some risk and potential downside that some are ignoring such as:
1. If an economic downturn occurs or the current pilot shortage is disrupted by some unforeseen event. These are unlikely but the potential does exist and shouldn’t be overlooked.
2. The company could cease operations, sell, or lease the airplanes etc.
3. Every month, we are foregoing increased pay and benefits.
If at the margin, the committee is able to extract slight improvements, but those improvements involve an extended timeline, then it may take months or years to recoup the losses.
FL450 makes his case and appears willing to take that risk. Fair enough. I can respect his view.
But what about the members who have a differing view? Are they to be disregarded or shouted down?
You see the virtue of a vote is it accurately and justly reflects the will of the members. 450 has his say, and Rosebud has his. What could be better?
In many respects, the IBT has concentrated power within a handful of individuals who have the authority to deny the will of the majority.
Maybe some are opposed to the concept of the will of the majority. If that’s the case, just say so.
I believe Rosebud’s sentiments are reflected by most, and there is enormous discontent among the membership. If there is no move for a vote, then what is the effective recourse?
07-30-2017, 06:35 AM
#182
Line Holder
Joined APC: Dec 2016
Posts: 36
Rosebud’s point is well taken.
The NC and executive board may in fact be able to extract more compensation and enhance work rules through further negotiations. However that does come with some risk and potential downside that some are ignoring such as:
1. If an economic downturn occurs or the current pilot shortage is disrupted by some unforeseen event. These are unlikely but the potential does exist and shouldn’t be overlooked.
2. The company could cease operations, sell, or lease the airplanes etc.
3. Every month, we are foregoing increased pay and benefits.
If at the margin, the committee is able to extract slight improvements, but those improvements involve an extended timeline, then it may take months or years to recoup the losses.
FL450 makes his case and appears willing to take that risk. Fair enough. I can respect his view.
But what about the members who have a differing view? Are they to be disregarded or shouted down?
You see the virtue of a vote is it accurately and justly reflects the will of the members. 450 has his say, and Rosebud has his. What could be better?
In many respects, the IBT has concentrated power within a handful of individuals who have the authority to deny the will of the majority.
Maybe some are opposed to the concept of the will of the majority. If that’s the case, just say so.
I believe Rosebud’s sentiments are reflected by most, and there is enormous discontent among the membership. If there is no move for a vote, then what is the effective recourse?
The NC and executive board may in fact be able to extract more compensation and enhance work rules through further negotiations. However that does come with some risk and potential downside that some are ignoring such as:
1. If an economic downturn occurs or the current pilot shortage is disrupted by some unforeseen event. These are unlikely but the potential does exist and shouldn’t be overlooked.
2. The company could cease operations, sell, or lease the airplanes etc.
3. Every month, we are foregoing increased pay and benefits.
If at the margin, the committee is able to extract slight improvements, but those improvements involve an extended timeline, then it may take months or years to recoup the losses.
FL450 makes his case and appears willing to take that risk. Fair enough. I can respect his view.
But what about the members who have a differing view? Are they to be disregarded or shouted down?
You see the virtue of a vote is it accurately and justly reflects the will of the members. 450 has his say, and Rosebud has his. What could be better?
In many respects, the IBT has concentrated power within a handful of individuals who have the authority to deny the will of the majority.
Maybe some are opposed to the concept of the will of the majority. If that’s the case, just say so.
I believe Rosebud’s sentiments are reflected by most, and there is enormous discontent among the membership. If there is no move for a vote, then what is the effective recourse?
You are obviously a man of wisdom and I enjoy reading and agreeing with your posts.
If there is no move for a vote, then what is the recourse ?
The one and only answer is a demand from the Pilot group to force them to put it out for vote and if not bring a decertification vote to the table. Playtime is over folks it's action time.
07-30-2017, 06:55 AM
#183
On Reserve
Joined APC: Jul 2017
Posts: 14
Ok I think we have heard enough from management on this issue...dubious and rosebud
07-30-2017, 07:24 AM
#184
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: Part 121, 135 & Military background
Posts: 379
The proposed pay is a joke, this is the best time ever in the industry, Omni makes a ton of cash, do not let them fool you. Business class or better, and pay rates that are industry standard with at the least a 75 hour guarantee. Flying charter all over the World demands to be compensated!!!
Do not cave, have some balls and dignity!
15 days on 16 days off
Do not cave, have some balls and dignity!
15 days on 16 days off
I totally accept and support your right to want the things you mentioned and you have every right to express them on a public forum.
With that said, i respectfully would like to challenge you on a couple of points.
75 hour guarantee:
I spent the bulk of my career with a 75 hour guarantee, my average flight time over 16 years at my previous carrier was 86 hours and with trip Rigs and Duty rigs my average pay was 93.
Coming to Omni with a 60 hr guarantee (and little chance of going over) was crushing.
But, being fair, i had never worked someplace where we fly so little!
While my current guarantee is 80 (I'm sure you know why, but not to be discussed here) while I was in gen pop i averaged 32 hrs/mo.
What I'm saying is, i would LOVE a 75 hour guarantee but unless they figure out a way to increase our productivity, it just is too much "credit" for the actual number of hours we work. Any Airline would have a tough time with that level of credit hours.
Business class:
Bro, I'm 6 ft tall and weigh 280... nobody wants business more than me. OK, maybe Luke, cuz he makes us all look scrawny!!
But, to be fair, most carriers have scheduled runs so they can fly their employees in biz for free (yes, there is a potential for lost revenue from someone who would have paid for that seat but sometimes they would also already be empty).
I was curious about how it works at Atlas, so i called a buddy over there and asked him, "in the last 12 months, how many biz seats have you gotten? "
His answer was maybe 8. It turns out that they tie the end of the pairings to scheduled runs back to the US or do up to 5 hour ground transportation to company aircraft.
Omni doesn't really have the opportunity to do these two things and that does put them at a disadvantage. Plus, you know whatever we get, the F/As are going to want "me too" ad is so often the case with the AFA. (Ever notice they always schedule their negotiations after ours?)
Now, before the daggers come out from the flamer squad, I'm not taking a position on "what we should" or should not do.
I just think it is important to debate (politely) these things with accurate information.
While some here do not respect their fellow pilots enough to give them credit for knowing what is best for them and their families,
I do.
I totally respect your right to advocate for what you think is best for you.
I think we can all look at what is on the table and decide if it is a good enough improvement.
What i would like to hear from the Union is their concerns about the language of the proposal.
This is where union trained negotiators DO KNOW MORE THAN rank and file pilots.
In every contract, at every airline, it seems the moment a contract is signed, a team of lawyers show up and start trying to shoot holes in it.
That starts the endless parade of MOU's.
Pilots trying to shout down fellow pilots for making an individual determination on the merits of a proposal is NOT a way forward.
But, we do need to trust NC for language in the contract.
Finally, i would like to reiterate my thanks to the NC. It is a thankless job and no matter how good a contract we get, somebody will call them a sell out.
We need to trust them, but they need to trust us.
I've been at a carrier that when the NC signed a TA, we voted it down.
Sometimes, a TA vote strengthens the hand of the negotiators.
I think we are getting close and I'm optimistic about our future.
07-30-2017, 07:38 AM
#185
Line Holder
Joined APC: Jan 2017
Position: 767 Captain
Posts: 28
Rose and DB,
You appear to be quite out of touch with the pilot group here. Though some may have similar sentiments as yours, I can assure you that the overwhelming majority understands our current position with the negotiation process and know that the company offer is lacking key provisions to bring us into the fold of industry standard.
Voting on the proposal in it's current state will only further delay the negotiation process and leave us hanging short of pay and pilots even longer.
You appear to be quite out of touch with the pilot group here. Though some may have similar sentiments as yours, I can assure you that the overwhelming majority understands our current position with the negotiation process and know that the company offer is lacking key provisions to bring us into the fold of industry standard.
Voting on the proposal in it's current state will only further delay the negotiation process and leave us hanging short of pay and pilots even longer.
07-30-2017, 08:47 AM
#186
Line Holder
Joined APC: Jan 2017
Position: 767 Captain
Posts: 28
Business class:
Bro, I'm 6 ft tall and weigh 280... nobody wants business more than me. OK, maybe Luke, cuz he makes us all look scrawny!!
But, to be fair, most carriers have scheduled runs so they can fly their employees in biz for free (yes, there is a potential for lost revenue from someone who would have paid for that seat but sometimes they would also already be empty).
I was curious about how it works at Atlas, so i called a buddy over there and asked him, "in the last 12 months, how many biz seats have you gotten? "
His answer was maybe 8. It turns out that they tie the end of the pairings to scheduled runs back to the US or do up to 5 hour ground transportation to company aircraft.
Omni doesn't really have the opportunity to do these two things and that does put them at a disadvantage. Plus, you know whatever we get, the F/As are going to want "me too" ad is so often the case with the AFA. (Ever notice they always schedule their negotiations after ours?)
Bro, I'm 6 ft tall and weigh 280... nobody wants business more than me. OK, maybe Luke, cuz he makes us all look scrawny!!
But, to be fair, most carriers have scheduled runs so they can fly their employees in biz for free (yes, there is a potential for lost revenue from someone who would have paid for that seat but sometimes they would also already be empty).
I was curious about how it works at Atlas, so i called a buddy over there and asked him, "in the last 12 months, how many biz seats have you gotten? "
His answer was maybe 8. It turns out that they tie the end of the pairings to scheduled runs back to the US or do up to 5 hour ground transportation to company aircraft.
Omni doesn't really have the opportunity to do these two things and that does put them at a disadvantage. Plus, you know whatever we get, the F/As are going to want "me too" ad is so often the case with the AFA. (Ever notice they always schedule their negotiations after ours?)
Very well thought out post and I understand most of what you're saying. But I totally disagree with your thoughts on business class travel. This is industry standard and is a minimum that must be included in our contract. It's easy for some guys in the "program" and maybe some instructors that hardly ever travel to overlook business class, but you have to consider the rest of your fellow pilots.
Economy class standards are getting worse and worse and fuller by the day. Its bad now, god only know how awful it will be in 3-5 years. Economy is fine if you travel on vacation once a year, but 3-4 times a month? It's torture. And I get that leads into your point that we travel more than say the "other guys", but giving the company a financial incentive to utilize crews better will only help our case. There's no reason they can't also use our own aircraft to transport crews more than they do now. How many times have people elected to stay on the company aircraft as opposed to taking crappy travel? A lot! And we get nothing in return for saving the company money except another coach ticket a few days later.
As for the FAs, that should have absolutely no bearing in our negotiations whatsoever. Plenty of operations offer pilots higher travel standards than FAs. I'm in no way denouncing them, or insinuating that they don't deserve business class, but if they want better travel that's between the FAs, the AFA, and the company.
The company putting out an offer without a business class provision is only wasting everybody's time. And don't bother with that travel duty day pay. 8 hours of gateway travel doesn't count, and all it means is a 6 hour layover and the clock resets. No one will ever see a dime of that money and our travel experience will only be longer and more grueling.
No business class, no TA. Period.
07-30-2017, 09:51 AM
#187
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: Part 121, 135 & Military background
Posts: 379
Stick,
Very well thought out post and I understand most of what you're saying. But I totally disagree with your thoughts on business class travel. This is industry standard and is a minimum that must be included in our contract. It's easy for some guys in the "program" and maybe some instructors that hardly ever travel to overlook business class, but you have to consider the rest of your fellow pilots.
Economy class standards are getting worse and worse and fuller by the day. Its bad now, god only know how awful it will be in 3-5 years. Economy is fine if you travel on vacation once a year, but 3-4 times a month? It's torture. And I get that leads into your point that we travel more than say the "other guys", but giving the company a financial incentive to utilize crews better will only help our case. There's no reason they can't also use our own aircraft to transport crews more than they do now. How many times have people elected to stay on the company aircraft as opposed to taking crappy travel? A lot! And we get nothing in return for saving the company money except another coach ticket a few days later.
As for the FAs, that should have absolutely no bearing in our negotiations whatsoever. Plenty of operations offer pilots higher travel standards than FAs. I'm in no way denouncing them, or insinuating that they don't deserve business class, but if they want better travel that's between the FAs, the AFA, and the company.
The company putting out an offer without a business class provision is only wasting everybody's time. And don't bother with that travel duty day pay. 8 hours of gateway travel doesn't count, and all it means is a 6 hour layover and the clock resets. No one will ever see a dime of that money and our travel experience will only be longer and more grueling.
No business class, no TA. Period.
Very well thought out post and I understand most of what you're saying. But I totally disagree with your thoughts on business class travel. This is industry standard and is a minimum that must be included in our contract. It's easy for some guys in the "program" and maybe some instructors that hardly ever travel to overlook business class, but you have to consider the rest of your fellow pilots.
Economy class standards are getting worse and worse and fuller by the day. Its bad now, god only know how awful it will be in 3-5 years. Economy is fine if you travel on vacation once a year, but 3-4 times a month? It's torture. And I get that leads into your point that we travel more than say the "other guys", but giving the company a financial incentive to utilize crews better will only help our case. There's no reason they can't also use our own aircraft to transport crews more than they do now. How many times have people elected to stay on the company aircraft as opposed to taking crappy travel? A lot! And we get nothing in return for saving the company money except another coach ticket a few days later.
As for the FAs, that should have absolutely no bearing in our negotiations whatsoever. Plenty of operations offer pilots higher travel standards than FAs. I'm in no way denouncing them, or insinuating that they don't deserve business class, but if they want better travel that's between the FAs, the AFA, and the company.
The company putting out an offer without a business class provision is only wasting everybody's time. And don't bother with that travel duty day pay. 8 hours of gateway travel doesn't count, and all it means is a 6 hour layover and the clock resets. No one will ever see a dime of that money and our travel experience will only be longer and more grueling.
No business class, no TA. Period.
some valid points, especially the no compensation for travel on company flight.
Maybe a travel bank is the answer.
I've never worked under those rules but people who have, seem to like it.
Don't think "program" pilots are immune from the pain.
I just did a 27 hour commute home and it was awful, next month i have 6 scheduled DHs.
I get it.
I only laid all that out there because I've talked to people who think these other carriers are flying biz all the time, and that's just not the case.
I am still hopeful that they can come to a compromise..... soon.
07-30-2017, 11:00 AM
#188
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2009
Posts: 611
The details of this (uncompleted) deal are a joke, but don't take my word for it. This is what industry standard looks like: https://www.dropbox.com/s/5prdjz8wua...ter-1.pdf?dl=0
The funniest part is if management is successful (Dubious and Rosebud), they are too stupid to realize that they could win the battle (trick the pilot group into pushing through this piece of garbage) and lose the war (actually increase Omni attrition while keeping their inability to recruit new hires) now that the hope of closing the huge compensation disparity with the rest of the industry is gone with another piece of garbage Omni CBA in place.
It's like watching Brian Bedford at Republic all over again. It appears that the only way Omni management (Dubious and Rosebud) knows how to be airline managers is by beating down pilot costs. They have no other skills to succeed in the industry. Playing that game in today's market is a quick way to Chapter 11 or better yet, Chapter 7 bankruptcy. Good luck fellas, because you are going to need it.
To the actual Omni pilots on this thread, don't fall for this trap, your Union is solid, smart, and is making the best decisions for you; that is why you voted them in office.
Last edited by JonnyKnoxville; 07-30-2017 at 11:19 AM.
07-30-2017, 11:01 AM
#189
Line Holder
Joined APC: Apr 2014
Posts: 91
OK, I know I'm being a bit simple when I say this but here goes.. The company offer doesn't even match the Kalitta contract! I'm sure Omni can do at least as much as Connie Kalitta did for his pilots. Just a thought.
07-30-2017, 01:43 PM
#190
On Reserve
Joined APC: Jul 2017
Posts: 22
Rose and DB,
You appear to be quite out of touch with the pilot group here. Though some may have similar sentiments as yours, I can assure you that the overwhelming majority understands our current position with the negotiation process and know that the company offer is lacking key provisions to bring us into the fold of industry standard.
Voting on the proposal in it's current state will only further delay the negotiation process and leave us hanging short of pay and pilots even longer.
You appear to be quite out of touch with the pilot group here. Though some may have similar sentiments as yours, I can assure you that the overwhelming majority understands our current position with the negotiation process and know that the company offer is lacking key provisions to bring us into the fold of industry standard.
Voting on the proposal in it's current state will only further delay the negotiation process and leave us hanging short of pay and pilots even longer.
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
