Omni Air
04-25-2024, 10:49 AM
#4321
Prime Minister/Moderator
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: Engines Turn Or People Swim
Posts: 40,009
Please be careful about any suggestions that might be construed as wildcat action, that can get your union in hot water. It can be a fine line, but err on the side of caution.
### It is against the APC Forum Rules to advocate any labor action which is not authorized by the RLA/NMB. This applies to ANY wildcat actions, including slowdown, work-to-rules, withdrawal of enthusiasm (WOE), sickouts, etc. It is irrelevant whether the union itself has anything to do with the action. Major unions have lost court cases and in one instance suffered severe financial damage in the process. Online posts, including anonymous posts and posts made here on APC, have been used in lawsuits against unions. Many major airlines are in negotiations at this time, and many are contentious. We have been contacted by major union legal teams regarding this issue. The rules here have not changed, but the enforcement will now result in a 30 day ban from APC for violations. Please don't sabotage your own union's efforts on your behalf.
### It is against the APC Forum Rules to advocate any labor action which is not authorized by the RLA/NMB. This applies to ANY wildcat actions, including slowdown, work-to-rules, withdrawal of enthusiasm (WOE), sickouts, etc. It is irrelevant whether the union itself has anything to do with the action. Major unions have lost court cases and in one instance suffered severe financial damage in the process. Online posts, including anonymous posts and posts made here on APC, have been used in lawsuits against unions. Many major airlines are in negotiations at this time, and many are contentious. We have been contacted by major union legal teams regarding this issue. The rules here have not changed, but the enforcement will now result in a 30 day ban from APC for violations. Please don't sabotage your own union's efforts on your behalf.
04-25-2024, 11:30 AM
#4322
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2018
Posts: 1,101
Or a chief pilot. In any event, if there are no contractual protections for line flying, and no line guarantees (one can't show harm if given a trip not on one's line, or removed from a trip, when one wouldn't break guarantee), then advocating calling in sick to avoid flying one doesn't want to do borders on a job action, and certianly could merit diciplinary action. As you note, a pattern may certainly warrant such. It's not only an HR matter, however.
If one calls in sick, an employer is quite justified in requiring a doctors note, both to verify the illness, and to show the pilot is fit to return. An employer who suspects the employee is lying, may very well make such a request. That may make such a game expensive, and presents jeopardy.
If that employee group were to be in negotiations, and negotiations were to be tense, allegations of calls for job actions, sick-outs, or other action that's not backed up by a CBA, would be damaging to that process. Particuarly such a call on a public forum. Counseling others to call in sick when they don't get what they want certainly lends credence to an allegation of job action, and in the least, may result in disciplinary action to those following that counsel. Either way, nothing good comes of the call or the fallout. The call loses its efficacy when advertised in advance. Such as here.
If one calls in sick, an employer is quite justified in requiring a doctors note, both to verify the illness, and to show the pilot is fit to return. An employer who suspects the employee is lying, may very well make such a request. That may make such a game expensive, and presents jeopardy.
If that employee group were to be in negotiations, and negotiations were to be tense, allegations of calls for job actions, sick-outs, or other action that's not backed up by a CBA, would be damaging to that process. Particuarly such a call on a public forum. Counseling others to call in sick when they don't get what they want certainly lends credence to an allegation of job action, and in the least, may result in disciplinary action to those following that counsel. Either way, nothing good comes of the call or the fallout. The call loses its efficacy when advertised in advance. Such as here.
04-25-2024, 01:52 PM
#4323
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2015
Posts: 446
Calling sick because you don't like a legal trip assigment or because you're dissatisfied with being removed from your line (or different flying assigned than "known" on your line) is a protest against preference, and tantamount to a job action: an unwise choice, particularly in certain climates. You understand, of course.
If one is going to pick one's battles, do so when one has a leg upon which to stand.
If one is going to pick one's battles, do so when one has a leg upon which to stand.
I know there's a couple of CAs who it's no secret lead the company in sick-calls from FOs who'd rather burn sick time than fly w/them!!
04-25-2024, 02:04 PM
#4324
Just Plane Stupid
Joined APC: Feb 2006
Position: Captain
Posts: 461
Why is it when we talk about FAR 117 there is always someone in the corn field yelling "Job Action"? No organization to and No job action, or wildcat strike talk. Just the regulation statement that....
Section 117.3 defines “fit for duty” as being physiologically and mentally prepared and capable of performing assigned duties at the highest degree of safety.
YOU THE PILOT WILL BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE (Not the company) if it is determined that you operated not in accordance to the FAR 117 regulations if something happens that warrants an investigation.
Now that is a "Flight Duty Period" assigned, so DH travel might be looked at differently, but, DH travel on company aircraft requires adherence to GOM policies. Is the duty different, yes, but in an emergency as a uniformed crewmember one might be put in a situation that they are not "physiologically and mentally prepared and capable of performing" is a question that wasn't addressed in the protest period of the 117 regs with uniformed DH travel.
Section 117.3 defines “fit for duty” as being physiologically and mentally prepared and capable of performing assigned duties at the highest degree of safety.
YOU THE PILOT WILL BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE (Not the company) if it is determined that you operated not in accordance to the FAR 117 regulations if something happens that warrants an investigation.
Now that is a "Flight Duty Period" assigned, so DH travel might be looked at differently, but, DH travel on company aircraft requires adherence to GOM policies. Is the duty different, yes, but in an emergency as a uniformed crewmember one might be put in a situation that they are not "physiologically and mentally prepared and capable of performing" is a question that wasn't addressed in the protest period of the 117 regs with uniformed DH travel.
04-25-2024, 02:22 PM
#4325
Disinterested Third Party
Joined APC: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,258
Why is it when we talk about FAR 117 there is always someone in the corn field yelling "Job Action"? No organization to and No job action, or wildcat strike talk. Just the regulation statement that....
Section 117.3 defines “fit for duty” as being physiologically and mentally prepared and capable of performing assigned duties at the highest degree of safety.
YOU THE PILOT WILL BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE (Not the company) if it is determined that you operated not in accordance to the FAR 117 regulations if something happens that warrants an investigation.
Now that is a "Flight Duty Period" assigned, so DH travel might be looked at differently, but, DH travel on company aircraft requires adherence to GOM policies. Is the duty different, yes, but in an emergency as a uniformed crewmember one might be put in a situation that they are not "physiologically and mentally prepared and capable of performing" is a question that wasn't addressed in the protest period of the 117 regs with uniformed DH travel.
Section 117.3 defines “fit for duty” as being physiologically and mentally prepared and capable of performing assigned duties at the highest degree of safety.
YOU THE PILOT WILL BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE (Not the company) if it is determined that you operated not in accordance to the FAR 117 regulations if something happens that warrants an investigation.
Now that is a "Flight Duty Period" assigned, so DH travel might be looked at differently, but, DH travel on company aircraft requires adherence to GOM policies. Is the duty different, yes, but in an emergency as a uniformed crewmember one might be put in a situation that they are not "physiologically and mentally prepared and capable of performing" is a question that wasn't addressed in the protest period of the 117 regs with uniformed DH travel.
There was, nowever, no discussion which suggested one should not call fatigue, or sick, if one is fatigued, or is sick. Further more, no one labled calling in sick, or fatigued, as a "job action." Only you have done that, ust now. Further exploration of that would require re-visiting that which has been removed, and one need not poke the bear.
04-27-2024, 10:21 AM
#4326
New Hire
Joined APC: Apr 2024
Position: a320 FO
Posts: 3
Contract Question
So, I saw the vote for Strike happened in Febuary, and then nothing after that, what's the cooling off period for the strike to happen? Or do you think you'll get a contract before the strike actually happens?
Do you know what the major things the are being asked for in the contract and what do you think you'll get?
QOL, and 401K would be most important to me as an outsider thinking of applying to Omni.
Thanks
Do you know what the major things the are being asked for in the contract and what do you think you'll get?
QOL, and 401K would be most important to me as an outsider thinking of applying to Omni.
Thanks
04-27-2024, 01:39 PM
#4327
Line Holder
Joined APC: Dec 2020
Posts: 49
So, I saw the vote for Strike happened in Febuary, and then nothing after that, what's the cooling off period for the strike to happen? Or do you think you'll get a contract before the strike actually happens?
Do you know what the major things the are being asked for in the contract and what do you think you'll get?
QOL, and 401K would be most important to me as an outsider thinking of applying to Omni.
Thanks
Do you know what the major things the are being asked for in the contract and what do you think you'll get?
QOL, and 401K would be most important to me as an outsider thinking of applying to Omni.
Thanks
You get what you negotiate. Not what you deserve. Omni pilots deserve Delta 18 percent DC, payrates, and work rules. ATSG however does not value pilots or emplyees. If you are considering employment at any airline you can only base your decision on current pay rates and work rules. Never base the decision on managements promise of future airplanes or a new contract. Those false promises seldom if ever actually come to fruition.
04-27-2024, 02:38 PM
#4328
New Hire
Joined APC: Apr 2024
Position: a320 FO
Posts: 3
You get what you negotiate. Not what you deserve. Omni pilots deserve Delta 18 percent DC, payrates, and work rules. ATSG however does not value pilots or emplyees. If you are considering employment at any airline you can only base your decision on current pay rates and work rules. Never base the decision on managements promise of future airplanes or a new contract. Those false promises seldom if ever actually come to fruition.
Sure I get it, that new people coming to the airline makes it seem harder to negociate, but I'm getting furloughed Sept 1st. I'm looking for a place to go ASAP, don't want to go back to the regionals, airport standby, and commuting with 11 days off a month for the next 2-3 years even though I could make $300k a year plus. I'd rather have crap pay and family time vs good pay and no time off.
You know you are getting a new contract, it will be forced by arbutration at some point, I want to know what the union is trying to fight for, or are your union reps worthless like at my last airline and they sold out to the company or if they are asking for reasonable things that might make this place a good palce to go to. IF you are going on strike when?
The union should have told what they are fighting for to employees. Yes people should use a future contract as a small part of choosing to work for a company. I would not use new aircraft as a basis or expect the entire list of items wanted in the contract, but you'll get some of what your asking for in the contract.
04-27-2024, 04:49 PM
#4329
Line Holder
Joined APC: Dec 2020
Posts: 49
rewrite this, make it sound like friends messaging each other on Airline Pilot Central:
Sure I get it, that new people coming to the airline makes it seem harder to negociate, but I'm getting furloughed Sept 1st. I'm looking for a place to go ASAP, don't want to go back to the regionals, airport standby, and commuting with 11 days off a month for the next 2-3 years even though I could make $300k a year plus. I'd rather have crap pay and family time vs good pay and no time off.
You know you are getting a new contract, it will be forced by arbutration at some point, I want to know what the union is trying to fight for, or are your union reps worthless like at my last airline and they sold out to the company or if they are asking for reasonable things that might make this place a good palce to go to. IF you are going on strike when?
The union should have told what they are fighting for to employees. Yes people should use a future contract as a small part of choosing to work for a company. I would not use new aircraft as a basis or expect the entire list of items wanted in the contract, but you'll get some of what your asking for in the contract.
Sure I get it, that new people coming to the airline makes it seem harder to negociate, but I'm getting furloughed Sept 1st. I'm looking for a place to go ASAP, don't want to go back to the regionals, airport standby, and commuting with 11 days off a month for the next 2-3 years even though I could make $300k a year plus. I'd rather have crap pay and family time vs good pay and no time off.
You know you are getting a new contract, it will be forced by arbutration at some point, I want to know what the union is trying to fight for, or are your union reps worthless like at my last airline and they sold out to the company or if they are asking for reasonable things that might make this place a good palce to go to. IF you are going on strike when?
The union should have told what they are fighting for to employees. Yes people should use a future contract as a small part of choosing to work for a company. I would not use new aircraft as a basis or expect the entire list of items wanted in the contract, but you'll get some of what your asking for in the contract.
You are wrong on many levels.
1) There is no arbitration clause in Omni's contract.
2) Pilots elect their Union representatives to represent them. That intails trusting their judgment in appointing the negotiating committee and overseeing said committee. Multiple instances of pilot polling have occured. I am positive the Union is well aware of the of the top issues needing to be addressed in a new contact. Ninety five percent of pilots are smart enough to say " The Union speaks for me ".
3) You disparage your last companys Union leaders. I am sure every pilot at Omni wants to be on the flight deck with you.
4) Have you ever seen a Union at any airline post on APC their contract goals? That would be sheer stupidity.
04-29-2024, 05:17 PM
#4330
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: Left, right & center
Posts: 839
On what basis?
As a rough estimate, Omni accounts for around 30% of ATSG's $2B of revenue in 2023. Spread across 14 aircraft, that amounts to around $44M per aircraft.
Delta had revenues of $58B in 2023. With 958 aircraft, that's over $60M in revenue per aircraft.
Omni is not nearly as productive on a per aircraft basis, so it is unrealistic to claim that Omni pilots "deserve" to be paid like Delta pilots.
Unreasonable expectations lead to protracted negotiations.
Because they don't accede to your unrealistic demands?
As a rough estimate, Omni accounts for around 30% of ATSG's $2B of revenue in 2023. Spread across 14 aircraft, that amounts to around $44M per aircraft.
Delta had revenues of $58B in 2023. With 958 aircraft, that's over $60M in revenue per aircraft.
Omni is not nearly as productive on a per aircraft basis, so it is unrealistic to claim that Omni pilots "deserve" to be paid like Delta pilots.
Unreasonable expectations lead to protracted negotiations.
ATSG however does not value pilots or emplyees.
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