Omni Air
11-06-2022, 10:05 AM
#3831
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2012
Posts: 128
Why is eight hours the "max possible (legally)?"
If you fly 12 hours, all 12 count against your flight and duty limitations, and if you are part of that crew, but not at the controls, when a violation occurs, you're on the hook for the same ASAP report, and for enforcement action.
The pilot in command remains the pilot in command, incidentally, of an aircraft requiring more than one crewmember, and may log it accordingly.
An existing discussion on the subject: Logging Heavy "Augmented" Crew Time
If you fly 12 hours, all 12 count against your flight and duty limitations, and if you are part of that crew, but not at the controls, when a violation occurs, you're on the hook for the same ASAP report, and for enforcement action.
The pilot in command remains the pilot in command, incidentally, of an aircraft requiring more than one crewmember, and may log it accordingly.
An existing discussion on the subject: Logging Heavy "Augmented" Crew Time
11-06-2022, 05:46 PM
#3833
Disinterested Third Party
Joined APC: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,261
If said violation is unintentional and doesn’t involve drugs/alcohol, and possible a few other caveats, said ‘violation’ probably falls under the FAA compliance philosophy. Lotsa pilots seem not to have heard of this. I believe this was implemented in 2015. It has undergone a name change recently.
By the same mangled token, observe the big sky concept: turn off your transponder and go. Probably nothing will happen. Right?
What the hell you talking’ ‘bout, Willis?
You mean for you consolidation hours, or OE (or both), as opposed to logging in general?
Do you understand the difference between acting as PIC or SIC, and logging flight time as PIC or SIC?
When you are assigned to a heavy crew on an extended flight, do you think the company records in their records of your time, only eight hours, or do they show block time for that trip as your accumulated commercial flying? Given that many pilots don’t bother to log the time, but us3 company records, what do you think those records show?
What they do not do is break down your time on that trip by where you sat or what you did. If you were a crew member assigned to that flight, the record of that flight (for which you will be held accountable with regard to flight time limitations) is based on your block time as a member of that crew.
Consolidation is another matter, and the FAA Chief Legal Counsel regulatory interpretations have held that your consolidation and OE experience is required to be performed at the controls. You are limited, depending on the regulation under which you are operating, to certain limitations in that seat, and limited in the time you may apply to your OE, or consolidation. That is a separate matter from logging your trip, or your operation as a fully qualified crew member under the regulation.
When you are doing augmented operations, you don’t have the option of simply doing eight hours and going off duty, ot stopping being a part of that crew. Whether you are manipulating controls or not, your existence on that crew assignment is legally required to enable the flight and duty intervals allowed with an augmented crew. In for a dime, in for a dollar.
Last edited by JohnBurke; 11-06-2022 at 06:12 PM.
11-07-2022, 07:14 AM
#3834
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2014
Position: Semi-Retired...
Posts: 3,228
Go on. Bet your career on a kinder, gentler FAA. The “philosophy” is not closely followed in practice. This is, of course, irrelevant. Kinder, gentler, compliance has no bearing here, unless you’re asserting that so long as you don’t act intentionally, then it’s laissez faire.
By the same mangled token, observe the big sky concept: turn off your transponder and go. Probably nothing will happen. Right?
What the hell you talking’ ‘bout, Willis?
You mean for you consolidation hours, or OE (or both), as opposed to logging in general?
Do you understand the difference between acting as PIC or SIC, and logging flight time as PIC or SIC?
When you are assigned to a heavy crew on an extended flight, do you think the company records in their records of your time, only eight hours, or do they show block time for that trip as your accumulated commercial flying? Given that many pilots don’t bother to log the time, but us3 company records, what do you think those records show?
What they do not do is break down your time on that trip by where you sat or what you did. If you were a crew member assigned to that flight, the record of that flight (for which you will be held accountable with regard to flight time limitations) is based on your block time as a member of that crew.
Consolidation is another matter, and the FAA Chief Legal Counsel regulatory interpretations have held that your consolidation and OE experience is required to be performed at the controls. You are limited, depending on the regulation under which you are operating, to certain limitations in that seat, and limited in the time you may apply to your OE, or consolidation. That is a separate matter from logging your trip, or your operation as a fully qualified crew member under the regulation.
When you are doing augmented operations, you don’t have the option of simply doing eight hours and going off duty, ot stopping being a part of that crew. Whether you are manipulating controls or not, your existence on that crew assignment is legally required to enable the flight and duty intervals allowed with an augmented crew. In for a dime, in for a dollar.
By the same mangled token, observe the big sky concept: turn off your transponder and go. Probably nothing will happen. Right?
What the hell you talking’ ‘bout, Willis?
You mean for you consolidation hours, or OE (or both), as opposed to logging in general?
Do you understand the difference between acting as PIC or SIC, and logging flight time as PIC or SIC?
When you are assigned to a heavy crew on an extended flight, do you think the company records in their records of your time, only eight hours, or do they show block time for that trip as your accumulated commercial flying? Given that many pilots don’t bother to log the time, but us3 company records, what do you think those records show?
What they do not do is break down your time on that trip by where you sat or what you did. If you were a crew member assigned to that flight, the record of that flight (for which you will be held accountable with regard to flight time limitations) is based on your block time as a member of that crew.
Consolidation is another matter, and the FAA Chief Legal Counsel regulatory interpretations have held that your consolidation and OE experience is required to be performed at the controls. You are limited, depending on the regulation under which you are operating, to certain limitations in that seat, and limited in the time you may apply to your OE, or consolidation. That is a separate matter from logging your trip, or your operation as a fully qualified crew member under the regulation.
When you are doing augmented operations, you don’t have the option of simply doing eight hours and going off duty, ot stopping being a part of that crew. Whether you are manipulating controls or not, your existence on that crew assignment is legally required to enable the flight and duty intervals allowed with an augmented crew. In for a dime, in for a dollar.
The flight is augmented and every pilot is a functioning crew member. The flight can’t continue if you hit 8 hours and declare yourself a pumpkin. You’re required, and can “log” the time. Logging and acting are two very different things.
further, our FO’s and CA’s working as IRO’s actually have assigned duties per the LROM.
read the links Burke listed; he’s 100% correct.
11-11-2022, 10:08 AM
#3837
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2014
Position: Semi-Retired...
Posts: 3,228
you won’t see a bargaining wish list on a public site like this. We do not tip our hand…. and they probably won’t answer in PM to somebody who may well be management. Sorry
11-11-2022, 10:35 AM
#3838
DC6471
Joined APC: May 2015
Posts: 42
Smart, thank you
open time, more seasonal but in ACMI in global operations it is always summer someplace. Summer tends to be busier.
you won’t see a bargaining wish list on a public site like this. We do not tip our hand…. and they probably won’t answer in PM to somebody who may well be management. Sorry
you won’t see a bargaining wish list on a public site like this. We do not tip our hand…. and they probably won’t answer in PM to somebody who may well be management. Sorry
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
