viperdriver

Lets say on the upcoming bid a 727 FO bid

1 777FO 100
2 MD-11FO 100
3 Airbus FO 100

They dont fill any secondaries and then hire into widebody. I would get passover, yes?

What if I add 757FO to the end of that, I would get 757FO with a seat lock for lateral move? Now what if they hire into widebody or have another bid? I could hold the widebody and woud go to training 18 months later? Would I get passover?

FXDX

Short answer: no.

Yes on the seat lock

Again no on the passover.

viperdriver

You are saying no passover pay in first case?

Isn't that like a new hire that gets 727FO then the company hires 777FOs he gets passover pay.

FXDX

Viper: yes I am saying no passover in the first case. In order to get passover you have to be awarded a seat (among other things). In your example no secondaries are filled, thus you wouldn't be awarded another seat. You remain where you are.

Now, if they had secondaries, and you were awarded one, and THEN they hired new folks into the seat you held AND they delayed your training, THEN yes you would be entitled to passover pay. Same seat means same domicile and aircraft seat.

Paragraph 24.D.2.a spells it out. Same seat held on same or subsequent bid, junior pilot trained and activated first AND the junior pilot's activation delays the senior pilot's, then passover comes into play.

I think new hires have been kind of a grey area anyway in regard to the term subsequent bid, but not too sure about that. In your example, however, its moot because you weren't awarded anything.

Hope that helps and that I didn't goober any of it up.

MaydayMark

Viper,

I 'think' FXDX is slightly incorrect. I think that 'if' management hires into a WB f/o seat and (assuming that you are a NB f/o) you have WB f/o on your standing bid (I recommend putting every higher paying seat on your bid) that once the new hire is activated into their new position that you get Passover pay.

IMPORTANT POINT: I learned the hard way that if you remove the reason you are getting passover pay from your standing bid that the pay goes away. When I asked the pay folks where it says that they replied, "That's just how we do it."

Still confused? I recommend that you email the PAC and ALPA Contract Admin and get an interpretation in WRITING.

viperdriver

I would say when a guy is hired he bids and that is a subsequent bid.

FXDX

Mark: I think you are correct in that if you are one of the guys AWARDED HKG A300 widebody captain and simply haven't been activated because there aren't any openings, then yes you have to maintain that standing bid in order to not only continue to receive the passover pay but also not have to pay it back.

You should always have your current seat (awarded) as your last standing bid.

However, there is nothing in the contract about having something on your standing bid that you haven't been AWARDED creating passover pay.

From the contract:

Passover Pay Due To Junior Pilot’s Early Activation

In case of a junior pilot’s activation to a higher paying position out of seniority order, every senior pilot who meets the following prerequisites shall be paid as if he had activated in that higher paying position (passover pay):

the junior pilot and the senior pilot(s) hold an award for the same crew position; and

the junior pilot’s award is from the same posting as the senior pilot’s award or from a subsequent posting; and

the Company chooses to activate the junior pilot prior to the senior pilot(s) and the junior pilot’s activation delays the training and activation of the senior pilot(s).

Notice all the "and"s in that section.

I do agree that if Viper wants a definitive answer he should call contract enforcement and ask them.

FXDX

Viper: also notice the word posting in the second requirement. New hires typically aren't awarded their seat on an actual posting, thus the ambiguity. If they happen to have a posting while they are in training then its more cut and dried.

If there was a posting then you would have the opportunity to bid it as well and thus would be awarded the seat before them, again negating the passover, unless they then delayed your training and activation in favor of the new hires (or any other junior pilot).

4A2B

the problem with your logic is that they can't hire into the WB (actually any seat) if there are no unfilled vacancy's from a bid. So if you can't be awarded one of your 3 choices then they either have no slots or you could not hold any of the awarded seats and thus there is no room for a new hire in those A/C. Go look at the last posting bid percentiles and you will notice that all FO seats in MEM are less than full, those are the seats that have been open to new hires. They can only hire into unfilled slots and once they are all full then they need a new bid with more unfilled slots in order to hire. Depending on your seniority you may not hold a seat and be stuck at FO pay, but if you are in the 727 you will eventually be able to bid into a WB seat via an excess bid if nothing else works because there are junior folks to you in those seats.

Sluggo_63

There actually is...

24.E.5. New Hire Crew Positions

a. During his initial new hire training, each pilot shall be presented with appropriate information regarding crew position vacancies available for bid. A new hire pilot's initial crew position shall be determined by his standing bid and seniority.

b. If the Company hires fewer pilots than the number of unfilled vacancies available to be filled by new hires, the Company may designate the crew positions to be made available for bidding by only the affected new hire pilots in accordance with Section 24.E.5.a. (above).

c. If the Company subsequently hires additional pilots to fill new hire crew positions remaining unfilled from a posting, the remaining unfilled crew positions shall first be available for award to the pilots previously hired to fill positions from that posting, based upon their seniority and initial standing bid; provided, however, that this paragraph shall not permit a new hire pilot to change his initial crew status.

d. If, through the application of Section 24.E.5.c. (above), a junior pilot is activated into a crew position for which a senior pilot(s) did not have the opportunity to bid, the eligible senior pilot(s) shall be paid passover pay in the same manner described in Section 24.D.2.b., D.2.c., and D.2.d.

...how I read that, and how it has applied in the past, is that if viperdriver bid:

1 777FO MEM 100
2 MD-11FO MEM 100
3 Airbus FO MEM 100

on this bid and was awarded none of those, then they have a newhire class and put one newhire pilot into the Airbus in MEM, viperdriver would get passover when that newhire activates in Bus.

Now, the question is if they put that newhire into the MD in ANC, would viperdriver get passover, because it is NOT on his standing bid? Paragraph c above makes it sound like no, he would not.