MaxKts

Sounds like a company problem not ours - contracts are designed to make some things next to impossible to implement! Why should we make it easy for the company?

Nightflyer

I was unable to hold an Airbus Captain bid on any bid after the DC-10 excess until after almost 5 years had expired.

I think on the bid in spring 2012, I could have held Bus Captain.

The guys who got "my" Captain seat, were eventually excessed themselves, I'll give you that, but not until after about 3 years of Captain pay. I figure it cost me at least $300,000 for those 3 years.

Please explain how a 100% seniority rebid during an excess would be unfair. Go ahead, I'm waiting. Unfair to who?

Training is the companies problem, not mine.

Either the union supports a seniority system or they don't.

Unless the seniority system is equally applied, they don't.

Under the current rules, which they have had opportunities to change, the union, which purports to "protect seniority" does not.

I say again, anything less than a 100% rebid during an excess is an abrogation of the seniority system.

So ALPA, are you going to fix this?

ALPA, do you really believe in the seniority system?

Or just for your "special" friends?

Nitefrater

ALPA doesn't exist to "protect the seniority system." It's function is to negotiate and defend a CBA. A CBA might have some, none, or all of the features YOU believe constitute the "seniority system."

Which part of OUR CBA do you think provides for a 100% seat rebid in the event of an excess? And if you can't find it, how much negotiating capital are you willing to expend to get it? And finally, how many of the rest of us can you convince to spend that much negotiating capital?

Nightflyer

Very easy for you to say, since you are already a wide body Captain.

Once again, "I'VE GOT MINE".

I'm saying the current contract does not protect seniority, and we should expend whatever it takes, including your pay raise, to correct the problem.

ALPA leadership, in more than one instance, has said that protecting seniority is very important to them. That was the reason they gave for getting the over 60 FE's back to the front seat. "It's the right thing to do", unless you are a junior worker bee.

Bottom line, either the seniority system is important and fair for all, or it is not.

Don't protect the over 60 FE's, and screw over all the junior FO's, and expect the junior FO's to be happy about it.

MaydayMark

Yo ... Nightflyer

I have several thoughts ...

EVERYONE agrees the OVER 60 resolution was bad for EVERYONE that wasn't 60 yet. It has hurt everyones seniority bidding every month, every training cycle, every vacation bid, it's hurting folks trying to get their 'high 5' ... I'm sure you get the idea

EXCESS BIDS are also bad for everyone but I'm missing your point about seniority? Assuming I understand correctly (I'll admit that I'm too lazy to take out my contract), if you are affected by the excess ... you can go to ANY seat on ANY aircraft that someone junior to you is currently on. How is that not protecting seniority 100%?

Nightflyer

Mark, go back and read my posts.

Several months before age 65 passed, and the "manipulation" series of bids occurred, I could have held Bus Capt at 100%, and would have been around 10 from the bottom.

I passed.

Had I known what was coming, I would have bid it at 100%.

Then age 65 happens (or maybe the DC-10 excess happened first, I can't remember), and the music stops.

At that point, now that I knew that seats would be frozen for 5 years, I would have liked to bid the Captain seat at 100%.

During the DC-10 excess, 30 FO's, ALL JUNIOR TO ME, were awarded Bus Captain Seats. I WAS NOT ALLOWED TO BID THE CAPTAIN SEAT ON THAT BID.

My question is, why not?

Those junior guys, got "my" Captain seat, and if I had been able to bid, at least one of them would not have taken it from me.

Since I was unable to participate in the bid, MY SENIORITY WAS ABROGATED.

I don't know how else to explain it.

Now, for those of you who will say "you should have bid it when you had the chance", that's BS. Had I known what was going to happen, I would have.

I say again, the only way to protect EVERYONE'S seniority during an excess bid is a 100% system wide rebid.

That is what I want in the next contract, and if it's not there, I'll be voting "no" (again, I might add).

You can't say seniority matters when it applies to aged 61 FE's, and then say it doesn't matter when it applies to junior FO's.

Either the union supports the seniority system or they don't.

Ours, at this point, only supports seniority for those who are "special".

Gunter

I feel you have been screwed but not exactly as much as you claim.


There are two separate, and distinct, issues here.

1) Age 65 excess bids vs. vacancy bids

2) Excess bid from an airplane that is downsized or eliminated.


The change to age 65 that generated excess bids and culminated in the excess out of the 727 SO seat was a distortion of conventional thinking and CBA rules governing such a situation. It also defied CBA intent and logic. It was truly meant to take care of the "special" people in the back of the Boeing regardless of their overall system seniority. I bet it was sold as offering savings to the company. The ethically defensible way to handle the situation would have been to hold vacancy bids to give the >60 guys a chance to move back up front. This could have occurred after the first excess bids. There should never have been an excess bid for the 727 SO seat.

But you also lump excess bids from a dying airframe into the mix. That is comparing Apples to Oranges.

You had a chance to bid or stay on the DC-10. You chose not too. Just like you chose not to bid Bus CA. Your seniority is not abrogated when you are legitimately given a choice but choose a different path.

Unexpected things happen. Considering that possibility should be a part of your bid strategy. You can't expect a do over every time an unusual event happens or you miscalculate. The cost of such disruption is prohibitive and is not a part of any pilot contract anywhere.

TonyC

You don't want a seniority system, you just want a system that allows you to exercise your seniority whenever you want to, along with a crystal ball and unlimited do-overs.


You exercise your seniority every time you submit a standing bid for vacancy and excess postings, every time you submit (or fail to submit) a monthly bid, every time you submit (or fail to submit) a vacation bid, and every time you submit (or fail to submit) your preferences for recurrent training dates, secondary or custom lines.

You choose to stay in your seat and enjoy seniority that offers an improvement in your quality of life. Your brother one number junior exercises his seniority and bids that Captain seat at 100% and gets to enjoy the quality of life afforded by being junior. Now some catastrophic event comes along and you want to be able to tell him, via your "100% system rebid", to go back where he came from, you've changed your mind, you want to be a Captain now?!?


Did The Company abuse the Excess Posting after the Regulated Age change? Absolutely. Putting an excess of 1 in almost every seat and allowing pilots to be "shuffled" and "flushed" through them was a violation of the intent of Excess postings, and that needs to be addressed. What you propose would be just as agregious.

Your seniority was honored every time you exercised it. Your regrets are no justification for accusing ALPA -- WE, US -- of denying your seniority rights.






.

Busboy

My point is that our union is us. You talk as if it is some outside entity. The "excess bid" section of our contract is what it is. Obviously, you don't like it. Maybe, it needs to be changed. But, those were the rules when the excess bids occurred. A complete system rebid was not part the contract that our pilot group ratified. So, a system rebid was not even an option!

You were a victim of 3 things, timing of Age 60, DC10 retirements and bidding choices. The first two were out of your control. But, your bidding choices, within the CBA, are in your control.

You say, " If I had an unlimited amount of money, I would have sued the union for failure to represent me and won.

This union only protects the seniority of wide body Captains and age 61+FE's going back to the left seat, because, as DW said, "it's the right thing to do.".

I say, "Really?"

FXDX

The statement highlighted above is when you exercised your seniority.