FedEx bid/passover seat lock
01-27-2013, 06:33 PM
#31
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2007
Position: MD11 FO, ANC
Posts: 1,098
Questions? Yes; why didn't the Union fight against this abrogation of Seniority?
Here's how I remember it. The senior F/Os bid the 727 window seat over the panel because that was all the information that was provided --there was no info on training dates (HKG was also available, and was what was driving this excess in the first place).
Why was there no info on training dates? The Company knew what the training dates were all along, but withheld that info. Why? Because had the senior F/Os known about the year long delay in ANC for the panel training they would have bid that. This would mean that the junior pilots would have trained in the window seat first, and were another bid to be needed later, they would have to be retrained on the panel.
So by withholding info the Company got the "right" numbers in the "correct" seats at the minimum training cost.
Which is fine, if you aren't operating in a Seniority system.
But we are operating in a Seniority system. What should have been done? I can tell you this would not have happened at my previous Major. There, the Union would have insisted the pilots leave in reverse seniority order, regardless of where they were going. If the only training that was available when the first pilot left was 727 window, that is where he went. When it came time for the more senior pilot to leave ( a year later in the ANC case) he would go where his seniority could hold (727 window) and if that resulted in overmanning in the window seat, then the junior ANC pilot would be excessed from the 727 window, and train on the panel. That costs more Training dollars, but THAT IS HOW SENIORITY WORKS!
This inaction by the Union sets a dangerous precedent.
Questions?
Sent from my iPad
I WAS an ANC MD11 FO at the time all this was happening & have friends that were "Nuggets" and flew with many ANC pilots that did get involuntarily Excessed to both of those 727 MEM seats.
As I said before - it was NOT a good situation for a LOT of folks - I'm assuming, from your comments, that you are one of the many that this situation was REALLY not good for. I'm sorry this happened to you and us all.
Having said that - I don't believe Our Union just stood by and refused to help any/all of those affected, nor just stood by and did nothing while the company just blatantly violated our CBA.
I'll try to respond to your comments with what I know & knew at the time all this was happening - which is why I stated "no one got kicked back to the 727 out of seniority order"
1. This company (FedEx) never publishes the details of the "training letter" until after the bid closes & is finalized - as per our CBA, they are not required to until 10 days AFTER the bid posting closes (and then only "projected training dates".)
2. Referencing #1, this company (FedEx) ALWAYS "withholds" the specific training dates information - they are only obligated (within the posting) to provide "information as to when training related to that posting is PROJECTED to begin" (CBA 24.B.1.b.v.) - ergo - it is ALWAYS an unknown (crap shoot if you will) to the pilots bidding as to when, exactly, they will go to training if awarded a particular bid choice - and that training is, by agreement, scheduled SEPARATELY for each individual crew position awarded - 727 FO training vs 727 SO training, etc.
3. Our CBA does provide for a "reverse seniority" BID AWARD if insufficient "volunteers" Bid to Relieve the Excess (CBA 24.C.6) - but as our CBA is written it only provides for this in the BID AWARD process - not the Training/Activation process. The company complied with the CBA in the case/posting we're talking about (ANC Excess Bid), so not sure what you expected/wanted Our Union to do about the "withholding of information" - bid awards were in accordance with seniority and the CBA
4. CBA 24.D. - separate section - defines the Training/Activation process. Reference #3 above, there is NO provision in OUR CBA for a "reverse seniority order of leaving" a current crew position to begin training on a new bid award - different CBA, different process, evidently, than your "previous Major" - unfortunately, in your example, there was actually no process or provisions in OUR CBA for Our Union to "insist on" FedEx proceeding any differently than they did as far as "order of training" goes
Our CBA is what it is - not perfect - and, I believe, the "Training/Activation" and "Filling of Vacancies" sections of our CBA are targeted by our union to "fix" some of the very things we are discussing here.......but, having said that, I think you are mischaracterizing the situation by stating things such as:
and
I felt my friends' pain as they were subjected to this whole process while pilots junior to them managed to stay & never missed a beat as MD11 FO's - turns out, the Company worked within the confines of the CBA as it was written and agreed to then - much to the chagrin of ALL of us that were affected by it (as well as the 4A2b debacle.)
But, I also really get tired of reading comments to the effect that Our Union didn't/doesn't take action when seniority is abrogated.......and/or why did/does Our Union just stand by and does nothing ("inaction" using your word) while FedEx perpetrates all sorts of other deliberate violations of our CBA against our pilots.
I really just don't see it that way.
01-28-2013, 02:47 AM
#33
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2006
Position: Crewmember
Posts: 1,395
If the union really cared about seniority, they would fix the excess bid clause in the contract.
During the DC-10 excess bid, 30 DC-10 FO's junior to me took an Airbus Captain seat that I wanted.
However, since it was an excess bid, I was not allowed to participate.
How could we change it to honor seniority? Very simple.
"Any excess bid from any seat shall result in a 100% seat rebid."
Anything less abrogates seniority.
Go ahead, flame away, but when the 727 excess bid comes, and guys junior to you are taking a seat that you would like to have, don't say I didn't tell you so.
If they union really cared about seniority of the junior members, and not just the senior Captains, this would have been fixed a long time ago.
During the DC-10 excess bid, 30 DC-10 FO's junior to me took an Airbus Captain seat that I wanted.
However, since it was an excess bid, I was not allowed to participate.
How could we change it to honor seniority? Very simple.
"Any excess bid from any seat shall result in a 100% seat rebid."
Anything less abrogates seniority.
Go ahead, flame away, but when the 727 excess bid comes, and guys junior to you are taking a seat that you would like to have, don't say I didn't tell you so.
If they union really cared about seniority of the junior members, and not just the senior Captains, this would have been fixed a long time ago.
01-28-2013, 03:10 AM
#35
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2006
Position: Crewmember
Posts: 1,395
Since I was not in the DC-10, I was not allowed to bid.
There were 10 people junior to me in the Bus Captain seat.
30 DC-10 FO's junior to me, but senior to the last guy on the list, took Bus Captain seats.
Again, I was not given the opportunity to compete for those seats.
We don't have bids very often around here.
This small bid now is a joke.
We are getting ready to have a large excess bid off the 727.
Get the seat you want now, if you can, before someone junior to you from the 727 gets it from the excess bid.
There were 10 people junior to me in the Bus Captain seat.
30 DC-10 FO's junior to me, but senior to the last guy on the list, took Bus Captain seats.
Again, I was not given the opportunity to compete for those seats.
We don't have bids very often around here.
This small bid now is a joke.
We are getting ready to have a large excess bid off the 727.
Get the seat you want now, if you can, before someone junior to you from the 727 gets it from the excess bid.
01-28-2013, 04:29 AM
#36
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2009
Posts: 556
Since I was not in the DC-10, I was not allowed to bid.
There were 10 people junior to me in the Bus Captain seat.
30 DC-10 FO's junior to me, but senior to the last guy on the list, took Bus Captain seats.
Again, I was not given the opportunity to compete for those seats.
We don't have bids very often around here.
This small bid now is a joke.
We are getting ready to have a large excess bid off the 727.
Get the seat you want now, if you can, before someone junior to you from the 727 gets it from the excess bid.
There were 10 people junior to me in the Bus Captain seat.
30 DC-10 FO's junior to me, but senior to the last guy on the list, took Bus Captain seats.
Again, I was not given the opportunity to compete for those seats.
We don't have bids very often around here.
This small bid now is a joke.
We are getting ready to have a large excess bid off the 727.
Get the seat you want now, if you can, before someone junior to you from the 727 gets it from the excess bid.
So the moral of the story? Yes, bid your seat when you can becasue you may not get the chance for quite some time.
01-28-2013, 05:10 AM
#37
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2006
Position: leaning to the left
Posts: 4,184
01-28-2013, 05:10 AM
#38
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2006
Position: Crewmember
Posts: 1,395
Yes, I could have held it on a previous bid.
Had I know what was coming, including age 65 and being frozen in position for 5 years, I would have bid the seat.
However, I did not.
What you are saying is that since I had the chance to bid the seat, my seniority was not abrogated. That's BS, and if you are honest with yourself, you will admit it.
Are you saying that since I could have held it on a previous bid, I should not get to compete for the seat on an excess bid? That's BS, too.
The excess bid system is UNFAIR AND ABROGATES SENIORITY.
Nothing less than a 100% seat rebid would protect seniority for ALL, not just the "chosen few".
Bottom line, this union, the union that I pay a substantial amount of dues to, did not, and will not, protect my seniority, but it will go to great lengths to bring age 61 FE's back to Captain's seats.
If I had an unlimited amount of money, I would have sued the union for failure to represent me and won.
This union only protects the seniority of wide body Captains and age 61+FE's going back to the left seat, because, as DW said, "it's the right thing to do".
ALPA, if you really care about seniority for ALL, change the way excess bids are run to a 100% seat rebid.
Had I know what was coming, including age 65 and being frozen in position for 5 years, I would have bid the seat.
However, I did not.
What you are saying is that since I had the chance to bid the seat, my seniority was not abrogated. That's BS, and if you are honest with yourself, you will admit it.
Are you saying that since I could have held it on a previous bid, I should not get to compete for the seat on an excess bid? That's BS, too.
The excess bid system is UNFAIR AND ABROGATES SENIORITY.
Nothing less than a 100% seat rebid would protect seniority for ALL, not just the "chosen few".
Bottom line, this union, the union that I pay a substantial amount of dues to, did not, and will not, protect my seniority, but it will go to great lengths to bring age 61 FE's back to Captain's seats.
If I had an unlimited amount of money, I would have sued the union for failure to represent me and won.
This union only protects the seniority of wide body Captains and age 61+FE's going back to the left seat, because, as DW said, "it's the right thing to do".
ALPA, if you really care about seniority for ALL, change the way excess bids are run to a 100% seat rebid.
Last edited by Nightflyer; 01-28-2013 at 05:23 AM.
01-28-2013, 05:16 AM
#39
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2006
Position: Crewmember
Posts: 1,395
Busboy,
The union is the one we have on the property, the same one that I pay dues to, the same one that is supposed to look out for my interests and did not.
The same one that believes, "I've got mine" is a great way to run a union.
If, during age 65, we could have left the union without paying dues, the lower 50% of the seniority list would have been gone.
I know I would have.
Why should I pay dues to an organization that is supposed to protect my seniority, but does not?
The union is the one we have on the property, the same one that I pay dues to, the same one that is supposed to look out for my interests and did not.
The same one that believes, "I've got mine" is a great way to run a union.
If, during age 65, we could have left the union without paying dues, the lower 50% of the seniority list would have been gone.
I know I would have.
Why should I pay dues to an organization that is supposed to protect my seniority, but does not?
01-28-2013, 05:46 AM
#40
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2009
Posts: 556
Yes, I could have held it on a previous bid.
Had I know what was coming, including age 65 and being frozen in position for 5 years, I would have bid the seat.
However, I did not.
What you are saying is that since I had the chance to bid the seat, my seniority was not abrogated. That's BS, and if you are honest with yourself, you will admit it.
Are you saying that since I could have held it on a previous bid, I should not get to compete for the seat on an excess bid? That's BS, too.
The excess bid system is UNFAIR AND ABROGATES SENIORITY.
Nothing less than a 100% seat rebid would protect seniority for ALL, not just the "chosen few".
Bottom line, this union, the union that I pay a substantial amount of dues to, did not, and will not, protect my seniority, but it will go to great lengths to bring age 61 FE's back to Captain's seats.
If I had an unlimited amount of money, I would have sued the union for failure to represent me and won.
This union only protects the seniority of wide body Captains and age 61+FE's going back to the left seat, because, as DW said, "it's the right thing to do".
ALPA, if you really care about seniority for ALL, change the way excess bids are run to a 100% seat rebid.
Had I know what was coming, including age 65 and being frozen in position for 5 years, I would have bid the seat.
However, I did not.
What you are saying is that since I had the chance to bid the seat, my seniority was not abrogated. That's BS, and if you are honest with yourself, you will admit it.
Are you saying that since I could have held it on a previous bid, I should not get to compete for the seat on an excess bid? That's BS, too.
The excess bid system is UNFAIR AND ABROGATES SENIORITY.
Nothing less than a 100% seat rebid would protect seniority for ALL, not just the "chosen few".
Bottom line, this union, the union that I pay a substantial amount of dues to, did not, and will not, protect my seniority, but it will go to great lengths to bring age 61 FE's back to Captain's seats.
If I had an unlimited amount of money, I would have sued the union for failure to represent me and won.
This union only protects the seniority of wide body Captains and age 61+FE's going back to the left seat, because, as DW said, "it's the right thing to do".
ALPA, if you really care about seniority for ALL, change the way excess bids are run to a 100% seat rebid.
Lastly, if you only had 10 guys senior to you in the Bus, you would have been excessed on the follow on bid, correct? And most likely never even attended training. The DC10 excess was the first of a few bids.
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