China Southern so cheap they wont deice
01-21-2013, 08:30 AM
#61
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Posts: 222
True. I can't remember, didn't ATC repeatedtly call them and the calls went unanswered?
Also, if, again IF that was the case, who's to say they would have answered an ACARS or SelCall (if applicable) message from company?
I'm not bashing those guys. But sadly it's been proven, at the end of the day, the responsibility falls on the crew.
If it can be passed down to the lowest level/highest profile level of accountability, it will.
And yes, you're right. It would be interesting to see what th fallout was on the ATC/dispatch end was.
Also, if, again IF that was the case, who's to say they would have answered an ACARS or SelCall (if applicable) message from company?
I'm not bashing those guys. But sadly it's been proven, at the end of the day, the responsibility falls on the crew.
If it can be passed down to the lowest level/highest profile level of accountability, it will.
And yes, you're right. It would be interesting to see what th fallout was on the ATC/dispatch end was.
01-21-2013, 10:10 AM
#62
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Joined APC: Aug 2011
Posts: 1,134
Just conjecturing, but if they flew out of radio coverage with ATC, as frequently happens, they might have noticed the flashing acars msg or selcall chime. I've had it happen in the middle of the night when ATC forgets to hand you off and you fly out of coverage, and gotten an acars msg to contact ATC on xxx freq from dispatch.
Whether it was ATC calls that may have gone unnoticed, an ACARS that went unnoticed, ATC trying to relay to another aircraft to contact them as frequently happens, trying to reach them over guard/121.5, etc etc etc etc........
01-21-2013, 11:02 AM
#63
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Joined APC: Sep 2009
Position: 767 Seat 1A
Posts: 222
I agree. To get back to the subject, it's good to see that FDX did the right thing and cancelled their DH's on CZ. It would be nice if UPS did the same thing, but all they look at is the savings by using a cheap airline. I'd be happily surprised if we did it as well, but certainly not holding my breath.
01-22-2013, 02:04 PM
#64
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01-25-2013, 09:51 AM
#65
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Position: whale wrangler
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BI must have needed the advertising revenue .
01-27-2013, 06:57 AM
#66
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Joined APC: Sep 2008
Posts: 322
"But I saw all the Chinese airlines taxi out, line up and off they go."
Yep, standard practice. FWIW, I flew for Air China (A330 skipper) for 3 years and nearly every time we deiced it was under protest from the remaining (Chinese) crew. I insisted on deice one night from PEK when the jet had been parked in SN for 24 hours and had snow on the wings up to the top of the fuse and the guys still tried to pretend "we be ok captain, no need for deice".
Also, when you do convince them to deice, they use Chinese made fluids that do not adhere to any standards and they make up whatever holdover time will get you away without delay. And the engineer will tell you its whatever type fluid you asked for.
"Is it type baked beans fluid"
"ahhhh yes captain, thats what it is"
And the engineer will meet you at the crew bus and try to convince you that the wing is clean, no need for you to check and will follow you around hoping you dont take a peek at the wing from the mid cabin windows.
In many many ways these guys just dont get it!!!!
Rant over, sorry, now its back to my post Chinese contract therapy!!!!!
Calm blue ocean, calm blue ocean, calm.........
Yep, standard practice. FWIW, I flew for Air China (A330 skipper) for 3 years and nearly every time we deiced it was under protest from the remaining (Chinese) crew. I insisted on deice one night from PEK when the jet had been parked in SN for 24 hours and had snow on the wings up to the top of the fuse and the guys still tried to pretend "we be ok captain, no need for deice".
Also, when you do convince them to deice, they use Chinese made fluids that do not adhere to any standards and they make up whatever holdover time will get you away without delay. And the engineer will tell you its whatever type fluid you asked for.
"Is it type baked beans fluid"
"ahhhh yes captain, thats what it is"
And the engineer will meet you at the crew bus and try to convince you that the wing is clean, no need for you to check and will follow you around hoping you dont take a peek at the wing from the mid cabin windows.
In many many ways these guys just dont get it!!!!
Rant over, sorry, now its back to my post Chinese contract therapy!!!!!
Calm blue ocean, calm blue ocean, calm.........
01-27-2013, 07:13 AM
#67
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Joined APC: Sep 2008
Position: The Far Side
Posts: 968
Originally Posted by sunburn
I have just heard through indirect channels that over 1100 DHs have been cancelled on China Southern.
As for confronting the crew ... the folly and danger of doing such a thing in totalitarian China has already been mentioned. Note also that the English skill of many Chinese pilots is atrocious, at least among those flying domestic routes . They likely wouldn't have understood you.
Last edited by rotorhead1026; 01-27-2013 at 07:26 AM.
01-27-2013, 07:46 AM
#68
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Joined APC: Sep 2008
Posts: 322
rotorhead
"The situation usually got rectified pretty quickly".
I flew for several South Asian carriers also (probably same as you lah) and these sorts of issues would slowly get solved also. One by one.
But not in China. Presenting a picture of a wing covered in snow and ice to your supervisors in a Chinese airline is not viewed very well. What would appear to a westerner to be an attempt to highlight a safety deficiency would be seen by a Chinese manager as questioning the honesty of the people charged with dispatching the jet.
"The situation usually got rectified pretty quickly".
I flew for several South Asian carriers also (probably same as you lah) and these sorts of issues would slowly get solved also. One by one.
But not in China. Presenting a picture of a wing covered in snow and ice to your supervisors in a Chinese airline is not viewed very well. What would appear to a westerner to be an attempt to highlight a safety deficiency would be seen by a Chinese manager as questioning the honesty of the people charged with dispatching the jet.
01-27-2013, 08:38 AM
#69
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Joined APC: Jul 2008
Posts: 1,235
rotorhead
"The situation usually got rectified pretty quickly".
I flew for several South Asian carriers also (probably same as you lah) and these sorts of issues would slowly get solved also. One by one.
But not in China. Presenting a picture of a wing covered in snow and ice to your supervisors in a Chinese airline is not viewed very well. What would appear to a westerner to be an attempt to highlight a safety deficiency would be seen by a Chinese manager as questioning the honesty of the people charged with dispatching the jet.
"The situation usually got rectified pretty quickly".
I flew for several South Asian carriers also (probably same as you lah) and these sorts of issues would slowly get solved also. One by one.
But not in China. Presenting a picture of a wing covered in snow and ice to your supervisors in a Chinese airline is not viewed very well. What would appear to a westerner to be an attempt to highlight a safety deficiency would be seen by a Chinese manager as questioning the honesty of the people charged with dispatching the jet.
01-28-2013, 05:03 AM
#70
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Joined APC: May 2007
Posts: 433
Well nothing more fun that being held hostage to a flight crew that doesnt think physics applies to them. During the recent snow storm in NRT, I was deadheading out on China Southern flt 386. We boarded and had a clean wing, but soon started to accumulate. From boarding to takeoff, was approx 2hr and the company never deiced. I was sure we were going to get squirted at the end of the runway but the pilot whipped onto the runway and immeadiately pushed up the power. I would estimate we had 2inches of clutter on the wings on takeoff roll. At 10000 ft we still had 20% of the wing covered with ice. See links for photos. First one was about 60 minutes before takeoff when he configured. By takeoff it was 2 to 3 times as thick. Second picture is during climbout after about 10minutes.
http://i1282.photobucket.com/albums/...psa47fccd5.jpg
http://i1282.photobucket.com/albums/...psee32e5b1.jpg
I know Fedex wants to save money on airfares, but this was outright dangerous, and I feel lucky to be alive. There were four fedex crewmembers on board this flight that might not have been here if Boeing hadn't made such an awesome wing on their 737. I've filed a ops report as have several of the other guys, I just hope we stop using these guys. Pl
http://i1282.photobucket.com/albums/...psa47fccd5.jpg
http://i1282.photobucket.com/albums/...psee32e5b1.jpg
I know Fedex wants to save money on airfares, but this was outright dangerous, and I feel lucky to be alive. There were four fedex crewmembers on board this flight that might not have been here if Boeing hadn't made such an awesome wing on their 737. I've filed a ops report as have several of the other guys, I just hope we stop using these guys. Pl
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