Gunter

Yes, we should see pay codes.

Timbo

I realize you have completely different "rules" which create all kinds of games to be played when it comes to maxing out your pay. I just wanted you to know that at one time we could block our schedules from view, and now we cannot.

That alone has not stopped all the 'workarounds', where guys will game the system to pick up more time, (trip parking, etc.) but it has slowed it down quite a bit.

No system is ever going to be perfect. There will always be a percentage of guys who will go to great lengths to find a loophole and grab up all the extra flying (pay) they can.

One of ALPA's primary functions is to protect us from the company screwing us, but their seconday function is to protect us from screwing each other! You know there are guys out there who would throw their momma from a train, or cross a picket line, to get mo'money for themselves. Being able to view everyone's schedule is not going to stop it, but it will provide some proof that it is going on, and then you can work on changing your pickup rules to prevent abuses.

That's how/why we are trying to end trip parking at DL....but I have no doubt there is already a 'workaround' in the works!

Gunter

quick question about the DAL open time system.

At those times when trips requests get process in seniority order, is it only via pick up or can a crewmember trade what they have for the more desirable trip? Do they have to be on the same footprint?

Thanks.

Timbo

We can do both, but to pick up, you have to stay under the cap. You could also swap a low time trip for a higher time trip, but pick-ups are awarded prior to swaps, so a junior guy at say, 65 hrs. could pick up a 20hr. trip, before a more senior guy could swap his crappy 10 hr. trip for it.

If the 'good' trip survives the pick up process, then the swaps are also worked in seniority order.

BUT...we also have what we call the "Pilot to Pilot" swap board, which has NO LIMITS on how much time you can pick up. That's where the trip parking games were being played.

Pakagecheck

If you are for privacy of a calendar, then why would you want to see pay codes?

Gunter

Then you misunderstand my point of view. Guys you fly with should be able to see your calender for this month, perhaps shown at the AOC, and the pay code you have on the trip. All else can be misused by an unhinged minority group that is very active. Not to mention ex-wives and such.

Gunter

The FedEx system gives you a monthly award and you can trade that amount plus 12 hrs. If you give a trip to someone else you lose those hours so we don't give trips away unless we don't want to get paid. No chance for a parking game.

Yes, even the 115+ hr a month guys can trade up 12 hrs.

Timbo

Our monthly bid run caps are much lower. On the bid run, the max you would get would be 92 hours. Now, every month it can change, the company uses a higher cap in the busier summer months, and lowers it in the winter. For example, my cap is 81:30 for October. So, the most my initial line award will be is 81:30.

After the bid awards, we can pick up to the cap plus 7:30. So for Oct. that's a max of 89hrs.

That is the max, for 'picking up open time'.

If instead, you SWAP for open time, there is no limit!

So what some of the senior guys are doing is this; they bid a whole bunch of small, 1-2 day trips, and then swap as many of them as they can, for bigger 4,5,6,8,10 day trips worth 30-68 hours. So he loses the 2 day, 10hr. trip, but gains 30-68, for a huge month.

We can also swap with friends via the pilot to pilot swap board, which operates outside of the normal company run open time pick up/swap board. We are only limitedy by FAR's on the Pilot to Pilot board. We can post a trip as a Swap, Drop, or Either. Most guys posting there are wanting to move their trip a day or two, for the kids soccer game or such, they want the same trip but on different days.

This is where being able to look at another pilot's schedule helps, you can find who's flying a similar trip, on other days, and what days off he's got, so you can find someone to swap with, call them, see if they want to.

Otherwise, we lose time too, if we just drop a trip into "open time", (if the company has the reserve coverage they will allow you to drop it) you lose the the time. So most guys would rather swap it and not lose the time, and that is done on the "Pilot to Pilot" swap board. BUT, what guys soon figured out was, they'd see a 20hr. trip in open time, they cannot pick it up as it would put them well above the cap+7:30.

To get under that, they would find a "Swap Buddy" and give him a trip off their line, to reduce their line value, so they could then be legal to pick up that 20hr. trip in Open Time, and still be under the cap+7:30.

THEN...after they've picked it up, they call their swap buddy back, and have him give them back their original trip.

Now, depending on aircraft type, we have some pretty high time international trips. If you were to 'work it', you could easily be parking and picking up 45 hr. trips, which would put you up around 135hrs. for the month! For every two guys that pick up a 45hr. trip, there's one less pilot they need in category to fly the schedule.

Any wonder the company's got no problem with it?

Because we can look at each other's schedules, we can see if a guy is flying 135hrs. and maybe have DALPA Scheduling guys look into it, see if it's legit. Up until this last Contract, there was no rule against it, but enough guys complained about it costing us hundreds of jobs, that it is getting fixed.

Starting in October, if a pilot parks a trip on another's schedule, he cannot have that same trip (same day), return to his line, unless the trip appears in Open Time, so everyone has a shot at picking it up, using the same Cap + 7:30 rule, and he can pick it back up there, if someone else hasn't picked it up first.

Quck math: Let's say we have a cap of 75. Now take 1000 pilots, and each flys an additonal 10hrs. per month (85 instead of 75). That's 10,000 additional hours of flying being done, which eliminates 133.33 pilots jobs, out of every 1000 (flying 75 hours) which is 13% less pilots needed to fly the schedule.

Now, multiply that by how many total pilots you have on your list. Now, how many guys are flying a lot more than 10 extra hours per month? Without being able to view their schedules, how would you know?

At Delta we decided we needed to be able to view other's schedules, to 'keep everyone honest'. That includes keeping our MEC members honest, who get paid for their trip drops to attend DALPA meetings.

Wow, this got a lot longer than I wanted it to!

Sorry about that.

FDXLAG

Timbo how does Delta handle a trip that extends in to the next bid month? At FDX we have a lot of international trips that will put 40+ hours into a pilots next month and not count against his "max". We also have quite a few domestic trips that allow a guy to fly 30+ hours extra each month.

If your new line conflicts with "last month's" trip you actually get priority in making it up to keep your hours above the "max".

Timbo

Sounds like you guys may be using bid sheets with lines built by your crew schedulers? We did that up until we went bankrupt, then one of the concessions we gave them was going to a computer based bidding system we call PBS (prefferential bidding system). It is now more of a 'math exercise' when we bid.


Let's say I have a 6 day trip at the end of Sept., worth 45hrs total, but 30hrs. of it in Sept. and 15 spilling into October. When October's bids open, the super computer knows I already have 15 hours spilling into Oct. from that last Sept. trip, so it deducts that from the cap when it awards my Oct. trips.

It won't award me trips that take me over the cap for Oct. and it knows I've got that 15 hours coming in, so for Oct. I have to do some math and add up the trips I want, plus the 15 spill over, to keep me under the cap.

Before PBS, with our pre-made lines of time bidding system, it would award you a line, and then drop any trip conflicts caused by spillover trips, into open time, you lost that time off your line, and you had to go fishing in open time to pick up something that would fit and stay under the cap. You got zero 'priority' to pick up, it was still strictly based on your seniority number, as it still is under PBS.

The one place you can still 'make some money' with PBS is, right after our next month's lines are awarded, on or after the 17th.

If I'm short for Sept, with the last few days off, and a spill over trip pops up in open time (a sick out) at the end of Sept. and I'm under the cap enough that I can pick up the 'Sept.' time in that trip, then I'll get it (seniority permitting in the open time award process), but it may have a whole bunch of time spilling into Oct.

It may be a six day trip starting on Sept. 30, with only 5 hours on Sept. 30 so I'm legal for it in Sept. But my Oct. line has already been built by then, so it just adds all the Oct. time to my October time. It doesn't prevent you from picking up a high time spillover once your line is built, as long as what you're picking up won't conflict with a trip on your Oct. line.

Senior guys have figured this out too, and they seem to always bid the first and last week of the month off, so if a high time spill over shows up, they can nab it.

Part of the problem is, at some level, we are all wh0res. I mean, we are all here for the money, right? If I want to have fun flying, I'd be in a Cub or a Pitts!

Some want mo'money, some want more time off.

I want both. ;^)

The guys who want more money want the caps to go higher and pick up restrictions lifted (usually senior guys in each category).

The ones who sit reserve and 'never fly' (usually the junior guys) want their jobs...so they don't want 10,000 guys all flying 30 extra hours every month, they'd be out on the street.

Our monthly cap limits are (loosly) based on the FAR's; 1000hrs./yr. divided by 12mo. = 83.33 max hours per month. As I said earlier, we have a moving cap, higher in the summer months, lower in the winter, but it's supposed to average 82/mo. for the year.

PBS was a manning concession, because it won't build lines with trip conflicts, month to month, or for your vacation or training. The number I've heard tossed around is about 8-10% manning is what it saved the company.