Suggestions 4 dealing w/insecure Capt
08-19-2012, 04:17 AM
#61
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2006
Position: Retired
Posts: 3,717
Fellow APC'rs,
have to cope with flying with a Capt I avoid since he is the Plague so, looking for humorous suggestions to get me through the week.
Why to avoid you ask? Well, he's so insecure that any question or communication outside the cockpit is an abrogation of his Capts authority. For example, acknowledging any ACARs message is a violation of his authority-last time I did it resulted in a 5 minute redfaced profane and obscenity filled rant. Or, another example, during what I thought was going to be the last trip I flew with him (resolution following the 5 minute rant BTW, "it's only 1 more leg you can cope"). But I digress, so, we were landing in EWR, his leg. He briefed his desired taxi routing into parking....so, after landing I requested said taxi routing and was approved by ground....which was a good thing because another 5 minute rant followed my communicating outside the cockpit without his express permission. I guess I was supposed to wait until being expressly told to request X, Y and Z into parking with ground. Might have been a Catch 22 scenario though....would be quotes "why didn't you request that taxi routing I briefed you on prior to top of descent-you think I'm just talking to hear myself talk, when I brief you to do something you do it Mister"
UNFORTUNATELY, double DH trip that I had to purchase NR tickets for so dropping it just isn't an option-damn the luck
have to cope with flying with a Capt I avoid since he is the Plague so, looking for humorous suggestions to get me through the week.
Why to avoid you ask? Well, he's so insecure that any question or communication outside the cockpit is an abrogation of his Capts authority. For example, acknowledging any ACARs message is a violation of his authority-last time I did it resulted in a 5 minute redfaced profane and obscenity filled rant. Or, another example, during what I thought was going to be the last trip I flew with him (resolution following the 5 minute rant BTW, "it's only 1 more leg you can cope"). But I digress, so, we were landing in EWR, his leg. He briefed his desired taxi routing into parking....so, after landing I requested said taxi routing and was approved by ground....which was a good thing because another 5 minute rant followed my communicating outside the cockpit without his express permission. I guess I was supposed to wait until being expressly told to request X, Y and Z into parking with ground. Might have been a Catch 22 scenario though....would be quotes "why didn't you request that taxi routing I briefed you on prior to top of descent-you think I'm just talking to hear myself talk, when I brief you to do something you do it Mister"
UNFORTUNATELY, double DH trip that I had to purchase NR tickets for so dropping it just isn't an option-damn the luck
You shouldn't have to fly with someone like that, but obviously someone does, because as you said, and I agree, management already knows about this guy and how he acts, and since they're not doing anything about it, it's up to the guys he flies with to get along, as sick as that sounds. Remember, it's only for a short time, and you're a professional. Do your best. And remember, we learn more from guys like that, than from the good Captains (of which there are many), because we learn what not to do, what not to say, and how not to treat our fellow crewmembers.
JJ
08-19-2012, 06:16 AM
#62
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2007
Position: 777 Captain in Training
Posts: 1,457
Some of you guys do crack me up....a captain yells and swears....and this is a matter for management, or the creation of a "hostile environment"?
YGBSM.
Harden the f up, people. Jeez.
The right way to deal with this is like an actual professional, and that is to make the very first step simply to talk to him about it face to face and in person. Not behind his back....not complaining about it to mom and dad (either the union or the company)....but outside of the cockpit.
The content of that conversation really depends on what you want to accomplish. If you want to just lessen the burden of this guy's act for a couple days, or if you really want to 'deal with him' for the long term and for everyone else's benefit.
If you're just trying to soften the blows, and since you know this is an ego thing, then it doesn't have to be confrontational at all. Frame it all in a way that strokes his ego, even, and make it look like you want to learn from his experience. Ask him to give you a more thorough debrief on the things he was irritated at. Apologize for not doing it exactly like he wanted (even though you did), and tell him you thought you were, but would like to learn more.
Being an outright dick to him is only going to fan the flames. You never know when those fanned flames might result in a call to the chief pilot or pro standards from him about you.
As an aside, it sounds like an opportunity for endless little bits of fun.
Sounds like this Captain is a real jerk, and a very insecure one at that. That said....suck it up you wuss. It's not like you're going to marry the guy, you're just going to fly with him for a few stinking hours. "You adapt, you improvise, you overcome." You don't call flight management, the DO, or your mother. You figure out what sets him off and DON'T DO THAT. It's obvious he wants control of everything, so give it to him. Allow him to make the decisions that you know he wants to make. If he wants you to talk on the radio, he'll tell you. Same for answering ACARS messages. As for talking outside the cockpit....Don't.
You shouldn't have to fly with someone like that, but obviously someone does, because as you said, and I agree, management already knows about this guy and how he acts, and since they're not doing anything about it, it's up to the guys he flies with to get along, as sick as that sounds. Remember, it's only for a short time, and you're a professional. Do your best. And remember, we learn more from guys like that, than from the good Captains (of which there are many), because we learn what not to do, what not to say, and how not to treat our fellow crewmembers.
JJ
That thinking was the dark ages and a guy very similar to this Captain gave us one of the worst loss of life in aviation history.
Remember KLM and Pan American World Airways, both 747s, on March 27, 1977 the highest death toll in any aviation accident in history occurred when KLM 4805 collided on the runway with Pan Am 1736 in heavy fog at Tenerife Airport, resulting in 583 fatalities.
If you try to talk to this guy does anyone really think it will result in positive outcome? Possibly one reason he has been able to operate this way is because no one has gone to pro stans etc. Yes you have a respobsibllity to be able to cope with a person you might not see eye to eye with. However you do not have to take a spittle laden profanity debrief. We do not have to sing kumbaya? in cockpit but BOTH crewmembers are required to be Professional.
YGBSM.
Harden the f up, people. Jeez.
The right way to deal with this is like an actual professional, and that is to make the very first step simply to talk to him about it face to face and in person. Not behind his back....not complaining about it to mom and dad (either the union or the company)....but outside of the cockpit.
The content of that conversation really depends on what you want to accomplish. If you want to just lessen the burden of this guy's act for a couple days, or if you really want to 'deal with him' for the long term and for everyone else's benefit.
If you're just trying to soften the blows, and since you know this is an ego thing, then it doesn't have to be confrontational at all. Frame it all in a way that strokes his ego, even, and make it look like you want to learn from his experience. Ask him to give you a more thorough debrief on the things he was irritated at. Apologize for not doing it exactly like he wanted (even though you did), and tell him you thought you were, but would like to learn more.
Being an outright dick to him is only going to fan the flames. You never know when those fanned flames might result in a call to the chief pilot or pro standards from him about you.
As an aside, it sounds like an opportunity for endless little bits of fun.
Sounds like this Captain is a real jerk, and a very insecure one at that. That said....suck it up you wuss. It's not like you're going to marry the guy, you're just going to fly with him for a few stinking hours. "You adapt, you improvise, you overcome." You don't call flight management, the DO, or your mother. You figure out what sets him off and DON'T DO THAT. It's obvious he wants control of everything, so give it to him. Allow him to make the decisions that you know he wants to make. If he wants you to talk on the radio, he'll tell you. Same for answering ACARS messages. As for talking outside the cockpit....Don't.
You shouldn't have to fly with someone like that, but obviously someone does, because as you said, and I agree, management already knows about this guy and how he acts, and since they're not doing anything about it, it's up to the guys he flies with to get along, as sick as that sounds. Remember, it's only for a short time, and you're a professional. Do your best. And remember, we learn more from guys like that, than from the good Captains (of which there are many), because we learn what not to do, what not to say, and how not to treat our fellow crewmembers.
JJ
That thinking was the dark ages and a guy very similar to this Captain gave us one of the worst loss of life in aviation history.
Remember KLM and Pan American World Airways, both 747s, on March 27, 1977 the highest death toll in any aviation accident in history occurred when KLM 4805 collided on the runway with Pan Am 1736 in heavy fog at Tenerife Airport, resulting in 583 fatalities.
If you try to talk to this guy does anyone really think it will result in positive outcome? Possibly one reason he has been able to operate this way is because no one has gone to pro stans etc. Yes you have a respobsibllity to be able to cope with a person you might not see eye to eye with. However you do not have to take a spittle laden profanity debrief. We do not have to sing kumbaya? in cockpit but BOTH crewmembers are required to be Professional.
08-19-2012, 06:28 AM
#64
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2006
Position: 1559
Posts: 1,535
Well, pretty sure the company is aware he's a piece of work since he was "fired" from his LCA job.
Not sure about how well the Pro Stan approach would work-re the LCA job, he described the last guy who had a run in with him as having issues with him since he's a non-union guy as well. He didn't quite seem to get it when I said I thought KT was a non-union guy too.....
Not sure about how well the Pro Stan approach would work-re the LCA job, he described the last guy who had a run in with him as having issues with him since he's a non-union guy as well. He didn't quite seem to get it when I said I thought KT was a non-union guy too.....
) but this one ain't your fault.
08-19-2012, 06:51 AM
#65
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2006
Position: leaning to the left
Posts: 4,184
First, you're the first person in this thread to suggest going to management with these complaints - recorded or otherwise. That's a weak d!ck approach. You try to deal with it man to man, followed by pro-standards if you can reach common ground on your own. No one has suggested getting mangement involved.
Second, using CVR tapes has some serious strings attached. It's not like we can just pull the tapes out any time we happen to have an issue in the cockpit with someone. A personality conflict would be pretty far down on the list of acceptable uses for CVRs (I hope).
Second, using CVR tapes has some serious strings attached. It's not like we can just pull the tapes out any time we happen to have an issue in the cockpit with someone. A personality conflict would be pretty far down on the list of acceptable uses for CVRs (I hope).
I may very well be the last person on this property to suggest taking something to management.
Last edited by Busboy; 08-19-2012 at 07:23 AM.
08-19-2012, 08:32 AM
#66
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2006
Posts: 329
There is no "suck it up" or "deal with it" here. This isn't a matter of annoying little habits, this is an insane power-trip nutball who's been granted authority over an aircraft and a crew. Some people don't need that authority, whether it be due to a chemical deficiency or life stresses. Profanity laden screaming in the cockpit should be offered exactly one opportunity to "make it right" and then a call made to the DO to be removed from the trip. The 757 F/Os who did this were right beyond reproach and thanked for doing so.
This is a safety issue and Pro Stan ain't gonna fix it on the turn. How many of these stories do you hear about? Not many, thankfully. The screw balls who feel they're justified in treating their crew like this are the exception to the exception. They get zero sympathy from me and need to be dealt with like the bullies they are - a nice sock in the nose. Since that would be "workplace violence", it would be best to let the DO do it. Indefensible behavior is just that, indefensible.
This is a safety issue and Pro Stan ain't gonna fix it on the turn. How many of these stories do you hear about? Not many, thankfully. The screw balls who feel they're justified in treating their crew like this are the exception to the exception. They get zero sympathy from me and need to be dealt with like the bullies they are - a nice sock in the nose. Since that would be "workplace violence", it would be best to let the DO do it. Indefensible behavior is just that, indefensible.
08-19-2012, 08:44 AM
#67
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2011
Position: 777
Posts: 495
To anyone who is saying to stop being a "wuss"... Really? Stop being such a try-hard.
If its a huge problem, just call sick or get pro stans to get you off the trip. They've done it for me before.. A couple weeks later, I had a face to face with this guy and pro stans. He sat there and basically cried to ALPA about stress at home, blah blah blah... No dude, you're a micromanaging egomaniac. I told him that to his face and he admitted that he isn't doing his job right when he gets like that..
That kind of problem solving can show this idiot that he's out of line... He's still on my no-bid list.
If its a huge problem, just call sick or get pro stans to get you off the trip. They've done it for me before.. A couple weeks later, I had a face to face with this guy and pro stans. He sat there and basically cried to ALPA about stress at home, blah blah blah... No dude, you're a micromanaging egomaniac. I told him that to his face and he admitted that he isn't doing his job right when he gets like that..
That kind of problem solving can show this idiot that he's out of line... He's still on my no-bid list.
08-19-2012, 08:55 AM
#69
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2006
Posts: 187
That said....suck it up you wuss. It's not like you're going to marry the guy, you're just going to fly with him for a few stinking hours. "You adapt, you improvise, you overcome." You don't call flight management, the DO, or your mother. You figure out what sets him off and DON'T DO THAT. It's obvious he wants control of everything, so give it to him. Allow him to make the decisions that you know he wants to make. If he wants you to talk on the radio, he'll tell you. Same for answering ACARS messages. As for talking outside the cockpit....Don't.
JJ
JJ
08-19-2012, 09:20 AM
#70
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2006
Position: Retired
Posts: 3,717
Yes, it was in jest....sort of. The problem is that everyone knows who this guy is, including ProStandards, Management, the DO's and the woman who does the popcorn. Nothing's been done about it and I doubt if it ever will. That limits ones options: you can call in sick; you can call in fatigued; you can bid off the trip once you see who you're flying with; you can make up some other excuse, like my car broke down on the way to the airport; or you can just go out and, knowing the "issues" that set this guy off, try your best to do your professional job, while not annoying this jerk. Acting in an adversarial manner will not do a thing to alleviate the situation, nor will hoping for a unannounced check ride, because guys like this always seem to do just fine, be it in the aircraft or in the sim, when they are observed by a check-airperson.
If I knew the guy I was going to fly with hated baseball caps (as an example), I'd do my best to not wear one. I know it's not the correct way of eliminating the problem, but it is one way, and again, I'm not going to marry the guy, just fly a few legs with him.
JJ
If I knew the guy I was going to fly with hated baseball caps (as an example), I'd do my best to not wear one. I know it's not the correct way of eliminating the problem, but it is one way, and again, I'm not going to marry the guy, just fly a few legs with him.
JJ
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