golfandfly

No kidding... I have to say I am happy he got the boot also... All I hear is sour grapes from this guy... Good riddance!

appDude

What feet? We were cut off at the knees by DW and the 'courageous' 12. We are out looking for prosthetics just to make us functional after that event.
And defending that action, telling us we were and are wrong and they were right, and just to get over it has not and will not work.
I do agree with you that we are in worse shape than you imagined.

Gunter

Despite DW's and BC's poor performance they are still held up as the standard to meet. People continue to tell me how smart they are too. Those that follow are poor leaders in comparison. We are directionless and disaster now looms.

Can't tell them they have it backwards and the future is brighter with different cats in charge. It is inconceivable and we must be totally out of our minds. I have a short list that I can't ignore. FDA LOA, A380 (instead of generic "bigger airplane" rates), stupidly vague contract wording not fixed, scheduling rule give backs to obtain a future aircraft payrate and penalty grid, $25K healthcare fund only for those 55 at signing/VEBA, making a mockery of polls, foreign pilots will take our flying (and other awful propaganda).


Hey Tony, I know we got Congress and the company to allow crewmembers to exercise their seniority rights. So what bone was thrown to the other 80% of us in return? Lopsided implementation of 4a2b? Excess from the SO seat to fill a vacancy that wasn't there? You see that's the problem, right. When something is meant to benefit the other 80%, it MUST include a provision to benefit the top 10-20% with the same or better increment. When something is meant to benefit the top 10-20% it doesn't matter what comes for all. They deserve more. Enough of that and you have an angry mob. Then regimes fall. Don't stand around and go "What happened?" like you don't know......Maybe you didn't realize time to upgrade and progression might be reduced in the future. Common problem with airline pilots.

I can't tell you how many times I've been told DW was good at rallying us into a powerful force. I can't believe it. His destructive behavior squandered that power. He has since fractured our group and his fanboys refuse to believe it. It is everyone else's fault. We aren't good unionists becuase the company recently hired a bunch of a@@holes. No. We were poorly lead through the minefield of FDA's and new aircraft pay rate and are sick of the self serving "leaders" who gave this mess to those that followed. Some of us are still good unionists but we have serious ground to make up as a pilot group.

Slinging arrows at our union now at every turn does not make us stronger. You know what it does. Why are you hoping for failure? So you can sweep in later and save us?

Busboy

I think you guys should get some bag tags that say:

"I'm just getting back what DW took and gave to his cronies!"

It's all starting to make sense to me now. This is truly, one pathetic group.

Busboy

DW = Frank Lorenzo?

Seriously? You really don't have a clue!

CAVU

Concur.

This new generation is unbelievable.

How can someone look in the mirror and really believe we should have denied the seniority rights of our pilots?

Huck

You mean the guys that got bumped back to the right seat, right?

Seriously though, it's not so hard, when you think about it.

A. The older guys benefited from Age 60 their entire careers,

B. When they didn't anymore, they got the rule changed and pulled the ladder up behind them.

I ask every captain I fly with - when did you upgrade to NB captain? How about WB? About 80% of the answers can be summarized as "my thirties" and "my forties."

That life is gone. The "New Generation"- as you call it - gets to say "my forties" and "my fifties." So... not loving the rule change (and ESPECIALLY the guys that came back off the panel, courtesy of DW himself) makes a fair amount of sense.

Gunter

Apparently my post was too long for the ADHD crowd to take in.


It's not that older pilots shouldn't be able to exercise their rights. It's that nothing was offered to the rest of us except a swift kick in the rear.


Hot and heavy into interim negotiations those who want more of our old school agenda are back pushing it. I'm starting to hear more of the associated propaganda too (discredit those working now so they can replace them with "the right" team).

We've seen it before. We don't want to give up on benefits for all to focus only on the "really important" items for the top of the list. I find it very convenient that this group doesn't remember the horrendous failures that have cost the majority of us, collectively, a huge sum for the minimal to moderate gains of a few.

You think you're so smart and most of us won't see it for what it is. No matter how you spin it or what part of the agenda you try to work behind the scenes we know what you're doing.

Tuck

The proposed law was that folks over 60 would not be allowed back in. Law trumps anything in collective bargaining - our CBA references the "regulated age" - that was the regulated age, must be under 60 to continue flying past 60. You guys seem to have a problem with this, the law is the law and plenty of times laws are written that are discriminatory in one way or another. DW personally lobbied for that change - "I don't care what the MEC tells me to vote, I'm going to do the right thing" blah blah blah. I personally heard those words out of his mouth. Seniority rights are governed by the law and the contract - that's it. The over 60 crowd HAD NO SENIORITY RIGHTS in regards to front seat until DW lobbied for the law's change. You can argue all you want about the right thing to do (as I throw up in my mouth) but stop this argument as to their seniority rights.

Had other law proposals been enacted seniority rights may have been granted to formerly retired 61 year olds at companies like SWA. You see, magically they would have had rights that they didn't have earlier, just like our guys magically got rights that they didn't have once the law was changed.

Busboy

Does anyone have factual numbers as to exactly how many over 60 guys were at FDX on 12/14/07, and what their seniority was? I know that it is irrelevant as to whether it was right or wrong...But, I'm just curious as to exactly how much retroactivity, actually affected those that were not excessed out of their seat.

The only factual numbers I have are:

Of the top 1000 FDX pilots still on the seniority list on 7/01/09, only 58 of those were over age 60 on 12/14/07. And 3 of those were already 65 on 12/14/07.

Top 10%-----22 guys
10-20%------36 guys

I guess the other 942 guys in the top 20%, weren't cronies of DW?

I was definitely not a proponent of the age change, nor retroactivity. But, to say retroactivity was done to support DW's senior cronies, is quite a stretch. It actually had a negative effect on 942+/- of the top 1000 pilots.

But Gunter, please don't let any facts ruin your senior vs junior rants, here on APC.