???? UPS July Recalls ????
07-08-2012, 10:40 AM
#41
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: Brown ones
Posts: 216
UPS and FedEx, while similar in many ways, management isn't one of them. They DAILY step over dollars to pick up dimes. You have no idea of the short-sightedness of this place. Trust me, 4a2b would NEVER work here iron clad language or not. UPS's response to any grievance would be "take us to court". So, the IPA would waste tons of money and time going to court while UPSS laughs all the way to the bank.
You Purple guys are an airline...we're not.
You Purple guys are an airline...we're not.
07-08-2012, 10:56 AM
#42
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2006
Position: 767 FO
Posts: 8,047
Perhaps,
But I get the impression that some pilots at brown and even FDX think that our 4A2b provision is a give back. In my opinion it is not. While I wish that we had stronger language to enforce the sharing of the pain, it does work to keep juinior guys employed. I think that is not only good for the junior guys but the profession as a whole.
But I get the impression that some pilots at brown and even FDX think that our 4A2b provision is a give back. In my opinion it is not. While I wish that we had stronger language to enforce the sharing of the pain, it does work to keep juinior guys employed. I think that is not only good for the junior guys but the profession as a whole.
07-08-2012, 11:07 AM
#43
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: Brown ones
Posts: 216
Perhaps,
But I get the impression that some pilots at brown and even FDX think that our 4A2b provision is a give back. In my opinion it is not. While I wish that we had stronger language to enforce the sharing of the pain, it does work to keep juinior guys employed. I think that is not only good for the junior guys but the profession as a whole.
But I get the impression that some pilots at brown and even FDX think that our 4A2b provision is a give back. In my opinion it is not. While I wish that we had stronger language to enforce the sharing of the pain, it does work to keep juinior guys employed. I think that is not only good for the junior guys but the profession as a whole.
As far as defending the profession, I agree with you in a utopian world. UPSS doesn't exist as currently managed in that world. Apples and oranges between the two.
07-08-2012, 04:32 PM
#44
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2005
Position: Brown
Posts: 1,126
Perhaps,
But I get the impression that some pilots at brown and even FDX think that our 4A2b provision is a give back. In my opinion it is not. While I wish that we had stronger language to enforce the sharing of the pain, it does work to keep juinior guys employed. I think that is not only good for the junior guys but the profession as a whole.
But I get the impression that some pilots at brown and even FDX think that our 4A2b provision is a give back. In my opinion it is not. While I wish that we had stronger language to enforce the sharing of the pain, it does work to keep juinior guys employed. I think that is not only good for the junior guys but the profession as a whole.
07-08-2012, 05:14 PM
#45
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Joined APC: Sep 2006
Position: Retired
Posts: 3,717
JJ
07-08-2012, 08:38 PM
#46
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Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: MD11 CPT
Posts: 1,077
Perhaps,
But I get the impression that some pilots at brown and even FDX think that our 4A2b provision is a give back. In my opinion it is not. While I wish that we had stronger language to enforce the sharing of the pain, it does work to keep juinior guys employed. I think that is not only good for the junior guys but the profession as a whole.
But I get the impression that some pilots at brown and even FDX think that our 4A2b provision is a give back. In my opinion it is not. While I wish that we had stronger language to enforce the sharing of the pain, it does work to keep juinior guys employed. I think that is not only good for the junior guys but the profession as a whole.
At USAir, there were restrictions when even one pilot was on furlough but the masses disregarded that part of the contract and the MEC failed to enforce it.
At UPS, IPA used a contractual clause to "recommend" that nobody pick up open time, and only 12 disregarded that guidance. UPS was on a mission, and no doubt would have abused a 4a2b to death...and then furloughed. It's not like they're bothered with the written word.
The Fed Ex plan, while it appears all trade unionisty, seems to me at least without precedent, and from your guy's stories here, seemed disproportionally applied, in a way defeating the "shared pain" mantra. To me at least it seems like yet another great intentions gone somewhat bad, and when abused my management that much worse.
07-08-2012, 09:25 PM
#47
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Joined APC: Nov 2006
Position: 767 FO
Posts: 8,047
So your open time ban wasnt sharing the pain? It aint socialist mantra to say that before you release 1 guy hours are reduced across the board. BTW our seniority system is the biggest socialist mantra going.
I ask because I don't know the answer...what other professions have such a system in place?
At USAir, there were restrictions when even one pilot was on furlough but the masses disregarded that part of the contract and the MEC failed to enforce it.
At UPS, IPA used a contractual clause to "recommend" that nobody pick up open time, and only 12 disregarded that guidance. UPS was on a mission, and no doubt would have abused a 4a2b to death...and then furloughed. It's not like they're bothered with the written word.
The Fed Ex plan, while it appears all trade unionisty, seems to me at least without precedent, and from your guy's stories here, seemed disproportionally applied, in a way defeating the "shared pain" mantra. To me at least it seems like yet another great intentions gone somewhat bad, and when abused my management that much worse.
At USAir, there were restrictions when even one pilot was on furlough but the masses disregarded that part of the contract and the MEC failed to enforce it.
At UPS, IPA used a contractual clause to "recommend" that nobody pick up open time, and only 12 disregarded that guidance. UPS was on a mission, and no doubt would have abused a 4a2b to death...and then furloughed. It's not like they're bothered with the written word.
The Fed Ex plan, while it appears all trade unionisty, seems to me at least without precedent, and from your guy's stories here, seemed disproportionally applied, in a way defeating the "shared pain" mantra. To me at least it seems like yet another great intentions gone somewhat bad, and when abused my management that much worse.
A lot of us wanted to fix the 4A2b language when we signed the last contract, we lost. It is hard to defend 4A2b the way it was implemented. But I cant see how anyone can be against the basic concept that before you furlough you must reduce hours across the board.
07-08-2012, 09:50 PM
#48
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Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: MD11 CPT
Posts: 1,077
So your open time ban wasnt sharing the pain? It aint socialist mantra to say that before you release 1 guy hours are reduced across the board. BTW our seniority system is the biggest socialist mantra going.
Every union has some sort of furlough protection language. Ours says before you furlough you should reduce hours across the board, in practice the company outsmarted us. Is the language perfect, not at all. But our pain only lasted 18 months, how is yours doing? It is expensive for the company to implement 4A2b, and it sucks to be in some seats if we enter 4A2b. Although it might interest you to know we had guys sitting on the deck collecting more hours for not the flying DC-10 then for flying the airbus or the 727.
A lot of us wanted to fix the 4A2b language when we signed the last contract, we lost. It is hard to defend 4A2b the way it was implemented. But I cant see how anyone can be against the basic concept that before you furlough you must reduce hours across the board.
Every union has some sort of furlough protection language. Ours says before you furlough you should reduce hours across the board, in practice the company outsmarted us. Is the language perfect, not at all. But our pain only lasted 18 months, how is yours doing? It is expensive for the company to implement 4A2b, and it sucks to be in some seats if we enter 4A2b. Although it might interest you to know we had guys sitting on the deck collecting more hours for not the flying DC-10 then for flying the airbus or the 727.
A lot of us wanted to fix the 4A2b language when we signed the last contract, we lost. It is hard to defend 4A2b the way it was implemented. But I cant see how anyone can be against the basic concept that before you furlough you must reduce hours across the board.
Starting to see a trend over there...if you aren't careful you may well become the UAL/Delta guys of the late '90's when they were the untouchable all high and mighty. Don't be that guy.
07-08-2012, 09:52 PM
#49
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: Brown ones
Posts: 216
So your open time ban wasnt sharing the pain? It aint socialist mantra to say that before you release 1 guy hours are reduced across the board. BTW our seniority system is the biggest socialist mantra going.
Every union has some sort of furlough protection language. Ours says before you furlough you should reduce hours across the board, in practice the company outsmarted us. Is the language perfect, not at all. But our pain only lasted 18 months, how is yours doing? But I cant see how anyone can be against the basic concept that before you furlough you must reduce hours across the board.
Every union has some sort of furlough protection language. Ours says before you furlough you should reduce hours across the board, in practice the company outsmarted us. Is the language perfect, not at all. But our pain only lasted 18 months, how is yours doing? But I cant see how anyone can be against the basic concept that before you furlough you must reduce hours across the board.
UPSS has been frothing at the mouth to get a 4a2b provision in our contract since they saw Fred institute it. They would have us in 4a2b 8 to 9 months out of the year! Seriously.
We still have reduced lines (basically half lines) for those that can afford it. It's a great deal if you can get it. The funny part is, the company only offers less than a dozen throughout the entire airline. Why is that if they say we're overstaffed?
4a2b wouldn't work at UPSS(for the umteenth time).
07-09-2012, 06:16 AM
#50
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2006
Position: 767 FO
Posts: 8,047
Jeeze...just asking...take it easy ace. I know it's blasphemy to even suggest that things aren't heaven over there by any UPS guy...I based my view SOLELY on posts by your fellow pilots...how would I possibly know if not from them?
Starting to see a trend over there...if you aren't careful you may well become the UAL/Delta guys of the late '90's when they were the untouchable all high and mighty. Don't be that guy.
Starting to see a trend over there...if you aren't careful you may well become the UAL/Delta guys of the late '90's when they were the untouchable all high and mighty. Don't be that guy.
Like I said I dont know who has the better contract, there are certainly some parts of yours I like better and I am pretty sure there are some parts of ours that you would like better.
UPS furloughed pilots, the IPA didn't. Shall I tell you yet again what the IPA has done for the furloughed pilots?
UPSS has been frothing at the mouth to get a 4a2b provision in our contract since they saw Fred institute it. They would have us in 4a2b 8 to 9 months out of the year! Seriously.
We still have reduced lines (basically half lines) for those that can afford it. It's a great deal if you can get it. The funny part is, the company only offers less than a dozen throughout the entire airline. Why is that if they say we're overstaffed?
4a2b wouldn't work at UPSS(for the umteenth time).
UPSS has been frothing at the mouth to get a 4a2b provision in our contract since they saw Fred institute it. They would have us in 4a2b 8 to 9 months out of the year! Seriously.
We still have reduced lines (basically half lines) for those that can afford it. It's a great deal if you can get it. The funny part is, the company only offers less than a dozen throughout the entire airline. Why is that if they say we're overstaffed?
4a2b wouldn't work at UPSS(for the umteenth time).
Great glad you like your furlough provisions just the way they are. I like ours, with some modifications. Do you get the impression I am talking to you when I quote other people? Or should I not respond to other people after you have said the final and definitive word?
For the record here is what 4A2b says:
The minimum bid period guarantee shall be reduced to a
minimum of 48/60 CH before any pilot is furloughed. At least a
full bid period must follow the announcement of this action. This
provision shall only be used to prevent or delay a furlough.
Last edited by FDXLAG; 07-09-2012 at 06:46 AM.
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