HercDriver130

One other thought they may be considering.... and I bring this up because I was at a gathering last night where one of the other people there was a labor lawyer. I laid out the situation here ... and he agrees the two where hired wrongly...however, he also believes if they are now discharged without some sort of compensation that they may have a wrongful termination suit...AND even if they lose which he said was more likely than not....the company would be forced to spend $$$$$$$ to defend such a suit. Perhaps something like this is at work.

I hope it all works out for everybody....though I suspect no matter what happens there are going to be unhappy pilots. Sincerely, good luck.

abxflyr

Herc you and your friend are correct. ABX is most likely not in an easy position to outright terminate the 2 guys without cause. Forget all the lack of 'right to work' state issues and any problems with the unions CBA, etc. They would, as you already pointed out, potentially expose themselves to a lawsuit concerning a termination based upon points discussed in this thread. Of course, the individuals would have to pursue that at their own course if they were let go. This is why the union and company at ABX have developed an MOU regarding the handling of this....at the time of this posting; the contents and scope of the MOU are a mystery. Many here have speculation (including moi') about the content, but no hard facts or anything worthy of mentioning. The answers and language will come out soon enough, but for many it has been too protracted from the union side of the house and not enough communication regarding its course. Can it be sour grapes??? Perhaps, but lets not go their until the MOU is actually released and we will all know what 'solution' is forced.

NCR757...I hear ya loud and clear on many issues. Not too sure about moving everything to ILN in the near future though. Would not have made sense to move CCIA to LIT, only to bear additional expenses to turn around and move....them, ATI or the combination again. ATI in fact only flies 6 a/c on what would be called scheduled revenue operations (3 DC8, 3 B767); the remaining a/c (8 total) are available for work but with this very soft economy not much is out there to get. DHL and others have some potential work, but do not wish to enter into a fixed contract during this economy and fuel prices. Variable rate adhoc is not the best for ATI, and will most likely end up with ATI not getting additional work for a bit.

ATI's crew force is very lopsided with regard to senior people in the wrong equipment and more junior persons anchoring the 767. It will and has taken a lot of time to cross train, especially with a dynamics associated with no in-house training, limited OE routes, and the cost of additional simulator time to keep people current or retraining required for time compliances. Eventually you will see a move to in-house training in ILN. They will continue the process, although at a slower pace, of furloughing in lieu of business opportunity panning out.

Didn’t mean to change the thread here…just wanted to answer up on some ATI as well.

NeedAJob

I don't think there could be any wrongful "termination" suit; because quite fundamentally there shouldn't be any "termination", only furlough. It has happened many times before that New Hires are brought on board only to be laid off while still in training due to a change in business etc. So if that happened here, there's no real case. They just join the line and wait for a recall, which is I suppose better than not being in the line at all.

Thanks for the ATI update. The rumors floating around our group is that the CP is saying a long term contract is about to come to fruition, and when it does it should generate a large recall. Of course they have been negotiating said contract for quite a while so who knows when it will actually settle.

Let's see what this MOU has to say. I'm very skeptical it will adequately fix the problem. My guess is they provide pay/recall to the senior two pilots that were available on March 14, and the rest get hosed. Meanwhile the New Hires maintain gainful employment outside of seniority order. Needless to say if things go that way there will be a rapid response from the 22 remaining pilots.

abxflyr

If that's what it says....there will be more than 22 pilots responding.

Besides...how does one determine who is the senior person on furlough? I for one have an approved voluntary furlough (remember furlough is a status, regardless of voluntary or involuntary) available at a moments notice; and it was available to me (and others) at the 3/14 date and before with ABX and union knowledge (doucmented).

NeedAJob

Well...prepare yourself for the disappointment. The more involved in the fight the better. All I'll say is that we have been nothing but totally disappointed in the evolution of this entire mess over the past couple months so its par for the course if they go that way (which they have indicated they will in phone conversations, but of course we can't be sure until things are made public).

As for the voluntary vs. involuntary issue...ouch..that's a hot button topic in our group. I'm not sure I want to touch it. Obviously given the nature of my previous posts, I understand seniority. However, its concerning to see it manipulated unfairly (of course fair is in the eye of the beholder).

Not trying to pick a fight here, but it does seem a little unfair to just hop from one job right to the other while others are sitting unemployed and have been for a while, more specifically during the actual class start date etc. IMHO it would seem more fair that a "voluntary furlough" should be taken proactively as part of an actual scheduled furlough, not reactively to another carrier's hiring while allowing someone else to take the bullet for you in the mean time.

You would just take the voluntary furlough as a way out of letter 34 even if there wasn't an active furlough scheduled. The rational would be...ATI will call back someone given the vacancy I create. Remember no such guarantee exists.

It is indeed an issue of timing in my opinion. If you want to be furloughed, step up to the plate and do it now as a part of the active furlough process. Remember there are another 11 getting cut loose next week. Don't put one of your peers through the furlough letting him take the ax for you only to jump into a spot at ABX instead of him a few weeks later. You double hosed him in that instance.

You would effectively never miss a day of pay while occupying the opening at ABX that could have gotten someone legitimately unemployed back to work. It wouldn't be such a huge deal if there was a guarantee that ATI would recall in response to your absence, but no such guarantee exists. That being said, if you just hopped into a spot at ABX, effectively you just blocked someone else from getting a job. Meanwhile your employment was never in jeopardy.

I'm sure you have your own ideas of fair, but my goodness this is a mess and that is extremely controversial...even within the Union.

NeedAJob

Determining the senior one on furlough is pretty simple. Who is furloughed? No offense, but not you. You haven't pulled the trigger on yourself yet. You're right furlough is a status. What was your status on March 14? You're still "active" right? You're trying to have your cake and eat it too. Just take the voluntary furlough "now" as part of the upcoming furlough of 11 next week if you want to go back to ABX rather than letting one of the 11 take the fall for you.

That truly does represent the old seniority cliche, "you first, after me" attitude. And we're screwed by new hires to boot. Wow. Talk about soloing under an unlucky star.

NCR757dxr

Who knows..... they really only moved 119 required management to LIT. Everything else has been shipped out to ILN (ABX contract dispatch). There is a skeleton crew in MCO but that is only a few positions. AFAIK, one crew skd from ATI is going to have to go down to MCO for 90 days while they close up the office.

Didn't mean to change the subject but I was just curious.

NeedAJob

Please do change the subject. This is getting fatiguing.

NCR757dxr

Done and done..... my questions have been answered!

abxflyr

No fight...just conversation and perspective. So how are you going to feel when the next recall (following CBA timelines, etc.) will serve recall notices to some who are employed at ATI, have met their 2 year requirement, and are not on furlough. Yes, that means guys will "effectively never miss a day of pay while occupying the opening at ABX that could have gotten someone legitimately unemployed back to work."

To further the discussion...leaving ATI to accept an ABX recall. That process hasn't been tested yet. It is very conceivable that one can take a voluntary furlough vs. simply quitting from ATI thereby retaining a recall right at ATI (as allowed via the ALPA CBA). It's not illegal, nor wrong, as voluntary furloughs are granted by management based upon management rights. Most all CBA goven involuntary furloughs, the methods, notification, etc....but voluntary ones are just that. Again, a voluntary may or may not save someone else's position...purely managements choice. This in effect can allow "you just hopped into a spot at ABX, effectively you just blocked someone else from getting a job. Meanwhile your employment was never in jeopardy."

I certainly hope you're not implying that someone should just keep their position at ATI and give up their recall right, seniority, and eventually job at ABX, so others who are furloughed can gain employment there.

It always sucks to be the junior guy on the pole, but it is a significant part of our industry...even the crux of the 2 who are getting away argument! If I weren't so junior I wouldn't have gotten furloughed in the 1st place...but, there still is a list, and that means someone higher on that list is going to have employment at ATI first, be furloughed from there last, and get recalled at ABX before others. If that's something you have difficulity with....well, I can only say "go corporate".