golfandfly

Fdx and UPS have different scales. At FDX, we separate wide body from narrowbody. As someone else said, a majority of our flying at Fedex is widebody.

Are these payscales better than a traditional legacy carrier? If you can get a very high rate for Captain or FO, then I'd say yes. Looking at the airline profiles, it appears that a 15 year captain at UPS makes around $244/hour. This is about the 15 year Fedex widebody captain pay. I work at Fedex and would certainly prefer UPS payrates. Although most of our flying is widebody, we are buying more 757s (also retiring 727s). If we could attain a widebody rate for all flying, of course I'd prefer it.

A single payrate is somewhat cost effective to the company as well. People are less apt to change airplanes for a few bucks of hourly pay which lowers training costs and keeps people working the line instead of training. It also lowers the amount of pilots in the training department to some degree.

So the answer to your question, which system is preferable? It simply depends on what hourly rate you can attain. Most legacy carriers have the highest rate on the large aircraft (747, 777, etc), but how many of these aircraft do you really have on property and how long will it take to get there? At my previous airline, it would take 20-25 years to make that level. Depending on the age when you got hired, you might not ever make it.

I'd guess that if you could successfully negotiate a single payrate (or a two tier like Fedex), that your pay would be somewhere between the high rate (777) and low (probably DC-9). If this is the case, do you find it preferable? I suppose it depends on the seat you are in at the time. A senior widebody captain facing a pay cut might not be too happy, while a junior guy might or might not be.

bjstout

I agree. The only thing is that the highest paid Capt on the property here is making only $209/hr on the 747-400/B-777. Plenty of room for upward adjustment. Even if we left it at $210 for CA and and $147 for FO's, it would be a raise for everyone.

golfandfly

If you can secure that rate, I'd say it is a great deal for everyone.

FDXLAG

Not so sure. My guess is some of the last few guys to take HKG Capt had to due to pass over rules. But we will see how senior HKG goes when they open the MD base.

Another guess, a lot of the Hkg MD guys will be Hkg Bus guys crossing over.

Swedish Blender

Airbum - I agree with your line of thinking. UPS is heading toward an all widebody fleet. More pay across the board would be great.

As far as arguing against the traditional pay scale, UPS is unlike legacy carriers. The most senior guys are not necessarily on our largest equipment. There are 138 747-400 captains in ANC. If pay is based on equipment, that is a small number to earn the highest scale (let's be honest, how much higher would it be for those guys). Rising tide lifts all boats.

What would the groups be?
747/MD11
767/A300
757

So the question for Delta pilots, would you fly the 747/777 and it's long legs if it were not for the money, or would you cruise around in a 737? It would be interesting to poll your pilot group and find out why they fly the aircraft their on. Money or QOL. Those usually don't go hand in hand at a legacy with tiered payscales.

42GO

In the end, your opinion of a system is determined by where you are in the system. Any system has an advantage to some at some particular point in a career, and some are at a disadvantage at some particular point.

YOU do not set how this is done. Your company does. That being said, you can look to other methods all day long. The only way a company is going to change that is if they save money which in the end means overall you as a group make less.

I certainly wouldn't try to change a cultural thing like this because in the end every system has some that benefit and some that get gored....it isn't worth a fight over this. Just try to raise the rates you have from within your own system.

filejw

SB..Most the guys on the 747 would prefer the long haul I'm pretty sure, me included.Trips are just better.

golfandfly

It depends. I'm sure there are some very good narrowbody trips available. I fly international now, but would probably take domestic and short legs if the pay was the same. I enjoy many of the international locations, but if I could fly to New Orleans or Nashville for the same money, I think I'd just go over there on vacation. A ten hour leg at 2AM can be kind of brutal. That said, I'd rather fly long legs than AM out and backs. I guess to each his own...

fr8rcaptain

QOL is the most important thing to consider when you pick aviation as a career. In the long run, I think our single scale is better for UPS flying, because it give me better control over my QOL.

Our equipment types and routes are very different from the typical legacy carrier: mostly wide-body, mostly GLOBAL international (around the world, intra-europe, intra-asia), middle of the night domestic ops, domicile turns (AM and PM), and some daytime transcon. Variety is the spice of life, right? But one mans treasure is always someone else's trash.

During my 20+ years here at brown (I have 14 years to go), I've made choices based upon what aircraft, what domicile, or what type of flying I want to do (NOT chasing the almighty $$). When I was in my mid 30's, I was lucky enough to be at the front of the wave and enjoy a few years as a senior 747 classic FO where I fell in love with the international schedules. As I get older, I'll probably choose to fly something a little closer to home, with fewer time zone changes. Right now, I'm doing a mix of international and domestic on the MD11. Unlike the typical legacy captain, I won't be stuck in a junior position on an international widebody to jack up my final 5/10 years average earnings (for those who still have A Plans). I hope to be flying out of a warm weather domicile, during the day.....


Now, all of this is fine and dandy when your airline is growing plus you have attrition due to retirements. Then you get to make choices. Unfortunately, we've tightened our belts, have 109 on furlough, retirement has changed to 65, we've delayed aircraft purchases, and have gone through numerous realignment and displacement system bids, so everyone is just trying to hang on until the economy turns around.

757upspilot

Something to think about. The single pay scale may push the smaller aircraft off of the property and reduce the number of seats that are available. OR in order to keep the smaller fleet type you may give up compensation that would reflect the bigger equipment. UPS has the ability to common carriage on routes where they can't profitably operate our own aircraft, enough cans to make a profit with a 737 in some cases but not at the pay scale we have for the pilots. While the single pay scale can reduce the number of changes you have to make in your career it may also limit the opportunities that you keep in house. Compensation based on the revenue capability of the aircraft being flown is probably the best way to go. If the mainline could have come up with a pay scale for the RJ's would the regional airlines even exist? We can price ourselves out of an airplane. We probably don't have an intra Hawaii operation and Aloha freight might not exist if we had a pay scale for a smaller airplane.