Freightpuppy

Well, UPS probably figured it out this time then. Last time your contracts passed by too high of a margin than what they really wanted. I can't imagine you guys were super happy with the old contracts even though they passed by a bigger margin. If they were great, why change it then? While this contract is not perfect (I can't see anyone arguing that), it had to have improvements over the last ones. Hopefully the next one will be the same. They will never be perfect. The company will always find loopholes and ways to exploit it especially UPS. Seeing that they don't even follow the contract, how can you expect language that is solid? It doesn't matter how solid it is when they just violate it all the time. All I'm saying is that all the company wants is a 51% pass rate. Anything more than that, they gave too much.

Freightpuppy

I agree with you and I agree with Lil J. I think we make good money for what we do but that doesn't mean that I don't feel I want/deserve more. I would prefer more money and better QOL rules but I would take QOL over money if that was something I had to pick between. First and foremost UPS has to actually follow the contract....they've been paying us (for the most part) what they agreed to so at this point, I'd have to say pay me more since they violate the scheduling article left and right.

Freightpuppy

WRONG ATTITUDE!!!!! There is NO reason to be "lucky" to keep what we have! Our employer makes so much money it's not even funny. I will NEVER vote for a contract even if it's $0.05 less an hour than what we have now. Keeping what we have should be an ABSOLUTE MINIMUM (and that's really not true.....QOL and scope should be priorities and improvements....more penalties for contract violations)! No we will NOT be giving up QOL to maintain PAY! We will not be giving up ANYTHING! If we do, we'll go down as the dumbest pilot group in history. This company is NOT like other airlines!

Freightpuppy

I agree we need a raise but you're dreaming if you think we will get 2X what we make now. DON'T GET ME WRONG, I'll take it if we can get it but I think it's unrealistic! 4 decades back isn't coming back in this industry. Sad but true (doesn't mean we shouldn't fight for it but I'm just sayin' it's not coming back).

Whistlin' Dan

You make about 50% more, on average, than most other people flying similar equipment on similar routes and schedules for other carriers. You make about 300% more than people of similar aptitude, education, experience, and college debt. You make about 600% more than the average schmuck who spends "only" 2 weeks a month on the road hustling for a buck. The true "litmus test" for any employer is the number of people who leave for another company, and in UPS' case, that number is nil.

The same is true for any career field. For airline pilots as a whole, that number is very low and concentrated mainly at the lower end of the career ladder. A guy may leave American Eagle to sell insurance or go back to law school, but he won't leave Jet Blue to do those things.

I will defend to my friends and golf-buddies the pay and benefits that major airline pilots make. What I won't do is compare their total compensation packages to those of other management-level positions, because we fare up rather poorly in such comparisons.

Pilots are NOT orthopedic surgeons, not even close. That's good, because many M.D.'s are not "people." Especially specialists.With the exception of a few major airlines, everybody's pay and benefits have fallen in relation to what we had 20 years ago. Ask your neighbors if their job is better now than it was 20 years ago. Chances are, they'll tell you their job, whatever it is, sucks and that they would not recommend it to their own kids as a career choice.

Whistlin' Dan

If I were feeling snarky this morning, I would say,

"Yes, you should be making TWICE what you're making, and I encourage you to stand firm, STAND FIRM in your next contract negotiation!"

That would eventually open up a couple thousand jobs in the ACMI community, and get some of my buddies off the street. That would also allow you to pursue an employer or career field that would at last pay you what you're truly worth.

That's what I would say if I were feeling snarky this morning. But since I'm not, I won't.

Have a nice day!

highsky

I said we "should" be making twice what we're making. I didn't say it was realistic at this point. What I said was that I'd settle for 30%, which is VERY realistic.

Secondly, I agree that the days of the $350K PAX airline pilot may never return for a variety of reasons. That said, we are not in the pax industry. Aside from airplanes, we have nothing else in common. Pax airlines operate on razor thin (often negative) profit margins. Therefore their pilot unions have very little leverage. Have you noticed the UPS/FEDEX profit margins? Let's capitalize on the profitability of our unique industry.

757upspilot

Can we agree that a signing bonus is a bribe?

SaltyDog

Absolutely agree. Ready for round three.

An UPS makes money like none of these other airlines/business'.
The management makes better money than most companies too. Fair enough for the lowly workers to benefit in the business model. You get what you negotiate, not what you deserve or perceive your worth. UPS can afford to pay top rates. Reason I chose to work to get hired UPS/FedEx/Southwest and passed on the rest. (My timing worked out and in that was lucky)

Freightpuppy

What are they?