Daniel Larusso

Why so grumpy JJ? Gunter is pretty much right, the gap between junior and senior schedule-wise is greater here than it is at most pax carriers. Most pax carriers do feature primarily 3 or 4 day trips (at least domestically) and the biggest difference in terms of senior vs. junior is often working weekdays vs. weekends or holidays. Sometimes it's also redeyes, or cdo's depending on the carrier, but mostly the trips are very similar. Destination wise, if you're junior at FDX there are cities you'll never see unless you get lucky in open time, get assigned on reserve, or get it in the view/add window. At pax carriers, you pretty much go everywhere the company flies, you just may not go on the day of the week you'd prefer or have the longer layover. As for carryover, it is a perk coveted by many that takes awhile to get and there really isn't anything like it at most pax carriers credit wise because of the shorter trips and sometimes because of cap and bank rules.

Jetjok

Daniel,

I'm not grumpy... at least I don't feel grumpy. What Gunter is missing, is that the passenger guys, domestically, fly a bunch more ups and downs a day than we do, because their system revolves around them moving people all over the place, while our freight system offers many fewer flights choices a day, and depending on which jet you're on, fewer city-choices, because we don't need to move the jets as much to make money. Mostly into and out of our hubs. So if you're junior at FedEx, you're probably on the 727, flying night hub turns, to cities that the more senior guys don't want to fly to. If you're junior at United, American, Delta, etc, you're probably flying their smallest piece of equipment, to where ever your trips take you. There is much more diversity of flying at FedEx and UPS than there is at the legacy carriers, and as such, seniority again rears it's ugly head, and the junior guys get stuck with the less-than-desirable trips and duty periods. Again, being junior sucks, but let's not forget, that over time, most junior guys become senior, and our company has been rather stable, whereas the passenger airlines have not.

JJ

FDXLAG

I think what Gunter and Daniel are saying is you are only forced to be Jr once, too bad at this particular time there was an extra 5 years tacked on (OK that last part was me).

The 727 has some very senior guys flying it. Probably more than at other airlines. The difference between our Jr lines and our senior lines is tremendous in QOL and pay. Do you doubt that a senior MD F/O can out earn a junior Capt? That is the reason that we have a lot of campers here.

Check 6

They are also gone 30-50% more.....no thanks.

Jetjok

Yeah, I understand what Gunter and Daniel are saying. What I'm saying is that, regardless of the reason someone is junior, and regardless of the disparity and QOL between the senior-most and the junior-most lines on a particular jet, and regardless of the fact that a senior wide-body first officer can out-earn a junior narrow-body captain, a flying job at FedEx is still a fantastic flying job. When I was hired by PAA (that's Pan American World Airways for you new guys), I was plumbing along with guys who had been on furlough for the previous 15 years. Imagine that. Imagine being junior for 15 years. Now, fast forward to today.....You guys really don't have it bad, so quit your whining and get back to work. And just in case you decide to continue to complain about the Age 60 thing, look around. They are raising the age limit on everything these days, because we are living healthier and longer, and we (the government) cannot afford to pay (social security, medicare, etc) to someone who retires at 60, but lives to 85.

Just my take.

JJ

Tuck

I still think you don't really understand the differences. Not sure how many people you talk to at the pax airlines but there is a huge QOL difference between junior guys at Delta and SWA (for example) and guys here. System form is just so drastically different that seniority in lines is much more important here than at the pax carriers. In addition our reserve system, usually manned by the junior guys in MEM is much worse than the others (number of long call lines, R24 in HSTBY, short call out time, etc). All that being said it's still a great job here .

So the age is being raised on everything? You'll have to help me out there - no one has ever even proposed an age change to Medicare - Social Security age changes have moved very little. Doesn't mean they shouldn't but they haven't.

Jetjok

I don't disagree with your first paragraph, especially your comment about the system form being so different. So I ask you, what do you suggest, taking into account the system form and the type of flying that FedEx does, to make it better for the junior-most amongst us? But, while you're doing that, keep in mind the senior-most guys as well, after all, they've put in a lot of time and sweat-equity here, and don't deserve to be thrown under the bus to appease the junior guys. Who, I might add, won't be junior their entire careers, unless of course they came here after one or two earlier careers.

As for your second paragraph, all I can say is just wait. It's going to happen, probably in the next 3 or 4 years. The country just can't afford not to raise those age gates. It's being talked about in congress, even as we speak.

JJ

Gunter

You many not feel grumpy but that's how you come across. At least when it comes to responding to my take on things.

I didn't mention the regulated age or say it sucked at FDX. Just pointing out some facts. It's you who doesn't remember the difference in lines in the pax world. Maybe you didn't stay there long enough to see how their more senior flying wasn't a leap ahead of the worst flying.

The most recent posts before mine in this thread are about letting pilots know what's in store for them. That's what I was responding to. I'd rather have folks come aboard who like this for a living. We've had a few leave because they didn't know what they were getting into. Good news is the NPRM may fix much of what needs fixing.

Folks are just going to have to accept less growth and advancement than we had, on average, during the tremendously good '94 to '07 period. Juniority will be a way of life for many.

Jetjok

OK Gunter, you win. I give up, but before I do, let me just say the following:
1. When I talked about regulated age, I wasn't talking about anything that you said, but was responding to FDXLAG's comment about "an extra 5 years."
2. The "facts" that you speak of are in fact, not facts, but opinions. Yours. I agree that there is a vast inequality in line construction between the "senior lines" and the "junior lines", but hey, that's seniority. As an example, many reserve guys live in domicile and bid reserve, even though they are senior enough to hold flying lines, which would increase their pay, both base as well as per diem, but they continue to bid reserve to better their quality of life.
3. As for remembering what it was like between lines at PAA, yeah, I guess I don't remember flying the shuttle between JFK and BOS, 7 to 8 legs a day for four straight days, and then the next week being put on a trip to the Bahamas, with a 48 hour layover. Yup, no difference between senior and junior lines there.
4. I agree that it's nice to make potential new-hires aware of the QOL and other flying circumstances here at FedEx, because it will help them understand the environment that they are wanting to get themselves into, but do you really think that you can explain to someone what it is like to fly in the middle of the night, for 4 or 5 days straight. I don't think so. As well, why would you even bring up carryover, as an example of another inequality, when in fact it's actually a reward for being senior, not a slam for being junior.

JJ

Gunter

If your point is that carryover, credit hours and pay do not matter since this is about QOL, I understand. Please ignore the following. But I think it mixes in. The willingness to vary QOL also applies to pay.

min credit hours per month is higher elsewhere. Yet we have some getting credit that Pax guys find simply incredible. They can't earn that kind of coin because they don't do deadheads. The difference from the norm is striking.

Our union noted total dues collected during 4A2b was just about the same as it was the year before. If you were on the wrong end on some bid packs you were taking up to a 23% hit. Again, not just a top 10% vs. bottom 10%. Folks clustered somewhat above and below 50% saw some big differences.

So...a significant number actually made MORE than they were making in normal times as carryover or draft to make dues a wash.

That experiment highlighted how pay even in normal years varies a great deal here. I only mention it because it's different from any other MAJOR airline. I'm not comparing us to a regional outfit. I thought you might have been at a major between between PAA and FDX. Do we really want to compare FDX to a regional?