captain_drew

"daftee" ???

Is this a 'New Age' insult? Or just an insult with a typo? Should I EVEN be bothered to take my time so speak with you?

You said you DIDN'T WANT to fly as an FE . if you could get a window seat. I don't think you understand that that 'attitude' is a slap in the face for generations of pilots who started their careers that way. The only airline I ever knew of, which operated 3-seat configurations, which hired (as a matter of course) into the right seat -was National Airlines.

"' . . . looking for answers, trying to understand the FE position"

At many airlines, at least for the immediate future "the FE position" IS the entry level hiring spot for pilots. That's because the newest guy on the property is the newest guy on the property -and seniority drives everything in the airlines. It will be so until everyone ends up with every jet on the property being a 2-place one.

Frankly, I think it is an excellent place to start out. You learn the A/C and its systems inside and out -and you get to go flying without having to 'sign for the jet' . You know stuff the captain 'used to know' and a good captain relies upon his FE to keep things on an even keel and him out of trouble. How else are you going to know how to be a good F/O or Captain, if you have not had the chance to observe numerous individuals and how they react to situations?

There ARE 'Standards' . .but every individual is different and you get a chance to see the good, the bad and the ugly . . and file it away for the day you are sitting in that window seat.

There is a down side to hiring right into a right seat. Many . .for that matter. We recently hired into the Wide Body right seat in ANC. If you. .or your family does not like the distinct 'life style' living in that latitude affords . . you would be miserable.

Something else that might not occur to many, is when you go to that seat right off the street . . you ARE the most junior in THAT seat . .as well on the entire seniority list. There are a LOT of more senior people sitting in other 'more junior' seats . .and every time a Bid comes out and they decided to bid your seat . . you get bumped further down the list.

Since your schedules, where you fly, when, vacations and anything else work related are based on where you are on the list. . you can BET you will be flying on Thanksgiving, Christmas, New Years, your wife and kid's birthdays, soccer games and school plays . .PROBABLY for years . .because you bypassed the normal progression. Or WORSE yet. .you'll be sitting on Reserve in a crash pad . .2000 miles away from home .. not drawing Per Diem.

But. . just like there ARE guys who really like living in Subic Bay . .or ANC. . or MEM. . maybe none of this will bother you. Most of us 'went with the flow'. The FE postion WAS the 'entry level', new hire seat . .and while we may not have enjoyed pouring coffee for some of the folks up front, we learned the craft a little better by observing . .and appreciated the view a little more when we got there.

B767

Thank you capt drew. As i mentioned minutes before, I did not mean to demean or insult the position in any way. Just my lack of knowledge came across as it and I can see why some were offended.

Sorry

CL65driver

Wow, good advice Cap'n Drew! A lot of us newbies never had to deal with the FE position, and thus lack the basic understanding of how important it really is. When I was working the ramp at FedEx in Oakland, a 727 Captain put it in clear terms.... the CA and FO may be the guys at the yokes, but the FE is the glue holding the entire flight together. It would be fun to fly FE in a 72, wouldn't be my dream job- but a great way to learn a whole lotta intricacies you forget once you start facing forward.

Oh well, on to build that 1k turbine pic for now

notanewguy

Just curious how Delta, American, Continental and the others get by. They hire right into the right seat. Are they inferior pilots because they never had to ride sideways. Why do so many feel it is vital to be an engineer on a forty year old airplane? Is it a right of passage? Is it beacause that's the way it was done for years? Is it because I had to so everyone should? Just curious.

BTW I did it at two different carriers.

Pilot7576

Notanewguy...

No it's not a requirement or a "rite of passage." However, if you eliminate ups and fedex from your list because you may have to fly sideways for a bit, you're doing yourself and future career a disservice. Ta'd rates for our fo's, for example, equal some of those in the left seat at the legacy carriers.

JMO

Pilot7576

notanewguy

Thanks, I am well aware of how the industry operates. My point was that so many at FEDEX and UPS feel all newhires SHOULD be required to spend time as a 727 FE. WHY? To what benefit? It is a relic that is going away.

fedupbusdriver

I believe the original question was directed at hiring at Fedex, so that is the way that it was answered.

B767

My understanding is the UPS SO spot is fading away as they are getting rid of the rest of their 17 727s and replacing the routes with 757s. This was mainly Fed Ex because they have over 100 727s and, from my understanding, aren't replacing them any time soon.

MD114Ever

All FE postions are quickly disappearing. Flying as an FE probably will never be an option for B767, if he is truly who he says he is.

Capt Drew- Times are changing...It's 2006, not 1966. I bet you thought we would never fly 2 seat jets. Remember the famous quote from ALPA that no airplane would fly without an FE. Well, the time will arrive shortly when no airplanes will fly with FEs. (At major air carriers for certain)

What about 2 engine ETOPS? Bet you thought that would never happen either.

We don't fly with Navigators any more either. Did you know that had changed?

I know it's hard to keep up with progress, but "the times they are a changin'."

notanewguy

I guess that is what I was trying to say. Thank you for making my point much better than I did.