jungle

Many of us have gone through this before, some of us multiple times. The solution wasn't found by standing in an unemployment line.

Actually everyone will tell you this. Get your head out and look around. Contracts become null and void all the time, insolvent entities are unable to honor them.
Unions don't run companies and companies don't run unions. They both make mistakes. They are both dependent on the company generating a profit.
This last decade should have made that crystal clear if you had any doubts before, if it isn't clear by now you might want to think about it a little more.
A contract is only as good as the parties that sign it, and it is a contract not a magic act. There is nothing to prohibit furloughs if the company is still profitable. You see, a contract cuts both ways, something a lot of us loathe to admit.

CactusCrew

And many of the furlough fodder has that t-shirt too ...

The "solution" was to pursue employment at a company that had some of the greatest potential for job security/stability. At least prior to this "business decision".

Your normal wisdom is less than enlightening today. I'll dig through my moving boxes and find my magic '8' ball.

"Outlook not so good " she said

now what was the question ?

Buck92

It would appear that capitalists don't much care for capitalism. What they want are monopolies, subsidies and protection. They can make far more money without messy competition.

jungle

Let me know when you have the answer. The only constant is change and the only certainty is uncertainty.

It would appear that unions are much the same, but we know much of what is happening has almost nothing to do with capitalism, or unions.

Buck92

If it weren't for your union, you definitely wouldn't be making in the neighborhood of $300K per annum doing what you do. The second you can be replaced by an Indian or Chinese pilot who'll happily take $50K to do the same job, you will be. Unions and government regulation are the only things standing between the Chinaman and your seat. You may be good, but you're not that good. Globalization is great -- if you live in a 3rd world country. It's a zero-sum game: if their standard of living gets pulled up towards us, our standard of living necessarily will get pulled down toward theirs.

jungle

I know a lot of people that make plenty of money who don't belong to a union. They aren't worried about the Chinese. If you think unions and regulation are saving your world I suggest you think about why business and money are finding more friendly places to go. Labor is only a small part of the puzzle.
Thinking about the world as a zero sum game is a losing strategy. Thinking about your union and company as a zero sum game is also a losing strategy.
We are currently exporting pilots, we have far too many for our own needs.
You might want to look at the AMA or ABA for a better concept of a union.
If you think some entity is better at running your union, your company or your life-go for it. But don't say I didn't warn you.
There is a huge list of companies, unions and countries that have bitten the dust. This wasn't caused by unions or capitalism-it was caused by the entity of poor management.
Protectionism, as defined by poor management, is a one way valve that only allows flow in the wrong direction. We have had enough of that.

Buck92

Two points we can agree on. I'd hazard a guess that VERY FEW union workers in any industry make what you do -- my point was that, as a pilot, you'd be making a lot less if you weren't in a union. As far as the ABA and AMA are concerned: I agree, they've got a great swindle. Instead of the feds controlling who gets licensed, their unions do. The equivalent for us would be if ALPA/IPA/etc were all one big union and we (not the FAA, who place no restriction on number of licenses issued) allocated the number of ATPs and type ratings to be conferred each year. That way we could hold the number of pilots licensed to fly for any carrier at an artificially low number, only granting a new license when someone died or retired, and have a lot more bargaining power for pay and benefits. The AMA and ABA absolutely exist to LIMIT competition. The last thing doctors want is you being able to pit one against the other for a cut-rate bypass operation. The 'beauty' of our current healthcare system to them is: you have no idea what your bypass even costs until AFTER you get it and receive the bill (most of which is paid by someone else anyway). What else do you purchase in your life like that? If you're a typical airline pilot, I'd guess exactly nothing. (60 cents for a new pair of shoe laces is kinda steep -- hey, the hotel in HKG has free dental floss. I'll bid that trip next month and replace my shoelaces with floss!)

jungle

You call it a swindle, but that is exactly the job you are asking your union to perform, or do you actually believe your wages will be better in a market flooded with pilots? They just haven't quite understood how to accomplish that task.

You believe that unions bestow high wages, I will challenge that, and ask you to consider which airlines or other companies pay the highest wages-it is the most profitable of those companies. Unions can't squeeze blood from a turnip, they may promise it but they won't come through.

Actually many things beside health care come with unknown price tags. This is why people make estimates before work is done in many areas. Healthcare is pumped up by a huge amount of government money and this has driven up the price for all of us. If we were the Post Office, we would be getting pumped up to the tune of 9 billion dollars a year. So yes, protectionism can most assuredly go in the wrong direction.

The right direction is to attract free capital and investment, not to manage by mandate. Coercion never works in the long term.

Freightpuppy

I totally agree which is why you should not live outside your means when you are making good money. While I don't think the apocalypse is upon us just yet, I am nervous that the company will go back to all contractors someday. For now, I will live below my means, become debt free and hope I make it here for about 10 years. After that, if I lose my job, I'm retiring.

Buck92

I actually believe that unions negotiate high wages (when they can). Do you honestly believe that your hourly rate would be the same if UPS Airlines was non-union? Think you'd have the same work rules? UPS would be even MORE profitable if they paid you half of what they pay you now, gave you less rest, commercialed you economy, etc. Why don't they do that -- because you'd walk and they wouldn't be able to run their operation without you? Where would you go -- nearly everyone else pays substantially less? What's the Nicholson line from A Few Good Men -- something about wrapping one's self in a blanket of protection provided and then complaining about the manner in which it's provided...

Believe it or not, I'm not actually a fan of unions, generally speaking (IPA is my first and last one, regardless of what happens at UPS). But as the airline industry goes, management has proven over the past 30 years that without a union, we'd be little more than a glorified city bus drivers -- without the government pension. Labor is an airline's largest non-fuel cost and they're always trying to lower that cost. You really can't differentiate yourself based on skill -- if you're good enough to pass a checkride, that's good enough. I don't want to rain on the parade, but Sully Sullenberger (who as a 20-something year Captain makes less than a 5 yr UPS FO) could easily do the job at UPS. You don't get paid more because you're better or as a reward because you help make UPS more profitable than US Air. If UPS could get away with paying you less, they would.