Originally Posted by Buck92

I actually believe that unions negotiate high wages (when they can). Do you honestly believe that your hourly rate would be the same if UPS Airlines was non-union? Think you'd have the same work rules? UPS would be even MORE profitable if they paid you half of what they pay you now, gave you less rest, commercialed you economy, etc. Why don't they do that -- because you'd walk and they wouldn't be able to run their operation without you? Where would you go -- nearly everyone else pays substantially less? What's the Nicholson line from A Few Good Men -- something about wrapping one's self in a blanket of protection provided and then complaining about the manner in which it's provided...

Believe it or not, I'm not actually a fan of unions, generally speaking (IPA is my first and last one, regardless of what happens at UPS). But as the airline industry goes, management has proven over the past 30 years that without a union, we'd be little more than a glorified city bus drivers -- without the government pension. Labor is an airline's largest non-fuel cost and they're always trying to lower that cost. You really can't differentiate yourself based on skill -- if you're good enough to pass a checkride, that's good enough. I don't want to rain on the parade, but Sully Sullenberger (who as a 20-something year Captain makes less than a 5 yr UPS FO) could easily do the job at UPS. You don't get paid more because you're better or as a reward because you help make UPS more profitable than US Air. If UPS could get away with paying you less, they would.

Originally Posted by JustUnderPar

Buck,
Dont worry about Jungle. He is the smartest guy he knows. He has done everything. Knows everything.

In 5 years we shall see. How is that forecast Jungle?

JUP

Originally Posted by jungle

You want to give all the credit to the unions, but ignore the companies ability to make a profit. The highest paying airlines don't hire the least experienced or the lowest level of skill, so you might say they pay for more and get more. Choosing the most profitable airline over the length of your career is largely a matter of luck.
So you feel the union has protected your job and given you high wages? That is just part of the story, there is a lot more to it. And where would you and the union be without a profitable company?




I don't know much, just trying to cheer you up, you sounded a little down in the dumps. Nothing to worry about. Your forecast is much better this time.

Originally Posted by JustUnderPar

Jungle,
Yes I am having a hard time with this. This sucks more than you know, this place is making money hand over fist. I want that to continue but I want to have a job as well.

I love this job. I dont think it is an entitlement. I know lots of people have made this place what it is. Took a long time to do it.

I just dont want to see the IPA going down the tubes. This whole SCS stuff has me worried. As it should everyone.

Just ****ed.

JUP

Originally Posted by jungle

You aren't the only one, even though I know it may seem like that. I lot of us have taken or will take a hit from this. Drive on.
My ideas on this may be a little different from yours, but that doesn't mean I am happy about it. Short term, there is no solution. Start thinking long term, and it may look a little better. Bashing the union, the company or your fellow pilots isn't going to change anything for the better.

Originally Posted by weatherman

i always get a kick out of pilots like jungle; the union pilot who doesn't believe in unions. you can bet that he wouldn't ever fly for or wish he worked for a non-union airline though.

just be sure to consider that fact when you're reading his hypocritical bullfecal.

Originally Posted by jungle

....Choosing the most profitable airline over the length of your career is largely a matter of luck.
.... And where would you and the union be without a profitable company?

Originally Posted by jungle

One of the problems we have here is that many don't really understand the function of a union and because of this attribute a range of magical powers to it that don't exist.
I never said I don't beleive in unions, but you do have to understand their limitations, just as you must understand the limitations of the company you work for.
The truth often comes as a shock.

Originally Posted by weatherman

if anyone is confused about unions it's you; a union-hating member of a union.

ups sends out paperwork every year asking us to forsake the IPA and come over to management. why don't you put your money where your mouth is and join management. oh, what? you would never actually do that though, huh?

you are amusing though.