FedElta

Hi Guys,

Airtran has recently resumed hiring, and Delta just announced hiring 240 this year. Normally FedEx is on the leading edge of economic change in the industry, so hopefully 4a2b will go away soon and some purple growth will return.

Regards,
BG

Albief15

Airtran, Delta, Atlas, and Jetblue all plan to hire this summer/fall. It isn't a huge wave, but it is positive movement.

I would also suspect that there are a few UPS and FedEx guys that have employee numbers from DAL that might strongly consider going back if it were somehow possible. While air cargo has had a fantastic run, the last economic cycle showed more contraction in freight than in passenger business. The change in retirement age, the elimination of 3 pilot aircraft, overseas bases, and overall slow advancement for a mid 2000s hire might have some families having some interesting conversations around dinner tables. The "security" of the cargo business really evaporated for a lot guys the last 2 years..especially at UPS. It will get good again...but "good" is going to be a very long wait for some guys at the bottom of the lists.

I don't know when the cargo guys will open the hiring windows again, but I think there will always be someone who wants to fly for FedEx. For UPS, however, I think attracting anyone who could go somewhere else will be more difficult based on the rough handling they gave their guys 2008-2010. Money has a way of motivating folks, but I don't think anyone will ever look at a "stable, safe" company mantra the same again.

L'il J.Seinfeld

I think what you see at Fedex and UPS these days epitomizes their respective unions and contracts. The FedEx contract/union is weak and that has resulted in many of their pilots only being paid 55 hours a month/bid. The UPS guys have a much better contract and the IPA refuses concessions at any level.

What has happened at UPS can never happen again. We've retired the 727, 747 classic, and DC-8 very quickly at the same time as age 65 and the worst economic downturn since WWII. The Worldport expansion was salt in the wound as more routes were cut. We are very lean now and efficient and IMO UPS will never hire aggressively again, but that means stability for those here.

FedEx on the other hand has more threats. This RLA/Fdx drivers debate could substantially change the company. I don't want to debate the issues here, but it's only a matter of time before both fdx and UPS are put under the same laws. Also, many Fedex pilot jobs are based on the USPS contract and there is no guarantee they will always have that, especially if the RLA no longer covers Fedex drivers.

L'il J.Seinfeld

UPS furlough was/is caused by;

1. Unprecedented drop in international volume. This left excess lift in Asia so UPS moved many MD-11s to domestic routes. MD-11s replaced 767s/A300 which in turn replaced 757s etc. You could say, in effect, that each MD-11 brought to domestic cause 4 757s to become unneeded. As the economy rebounds and grows this trend will change.

2. Age 60 becoming 65. UPS wants to furlough about the same number of guys as we have that are over 60. This hurt us badly as we had over 60 FEs return to the front seat. Many turning 60 that were going to retire did not because the markets tanked. Now the market has rebounded and we are getting closer to Dec 2012 (5 years after the age change).

3. 727/747 classic/DC-8 retirements. UPS retired these fleets much sooner and more quickly than anyone anticipated. In hindsight from a business perspective it was a brilliant move, although seeing our old DC-8s flying for a contractor is infuriating.

Certainly there will be future events that adversely impact our careers. But the "perfect storm" has happened and (knock on wood) it is unlikely to repeat.

FDX meanwhile has a contract that throws their junior members to the wolves. Reducing pay to 55 hours is pretty harsh and it's a burden unevenly carried at FDX. 727s are being replaced by 757s, and 777s are being brought on property without a pay rate. FDX guys are gushing over their shiny new triples, but may not realize what an assault on career progression that plane is. My opinions on FDX are not first hand as I don't work there. They are based on opinions I've heard from squadron mates.

IMO to say that one is more stable or desirable than the other is absurd. Also, to say that highly qualified pilots would pass on UPS for Delta is equally ridiculous.

Daniel Larusso

Conceptually, what has happened the last few years at Purple and Brown represented the closest opportunity those carriers will probably receive to get a sort of clean slate on things that the pax carriers got with bankruptcies and threats of bankruptcies. It allowed the management teams to show their true colors, not just with labor deals, but with their corporate philosophy. While there were clearly shifts at both companies to cope with the changing economy, but overall it looks like Brown concentrated more on ways to optimize their air business with the goal of using as little as possible while Purple basically tried to setup up their air model for the rebound while using their employee groups to subsidize the costs. They both basically went with the horse that brought them to the dance. I don't know what that will mean as far which company will be more successful overall going forward, but as far as pilots go it does seem that there will be more opportunity going forward at Purple than Brown in terms of hiring/movement.

Also why wouldn't highly qualified pilots pass on UPS/FDX for Delta or other carriers in the future? They have in the past(including the recent past), and most of the reasons they did so haven't changed materially. The sheer size of the pilot forces(more retirements) along with the nature of the pax business during economic upturns (greater frequency vs. larger gauge) mean those carriers will always hire more than Purple or Brown. There's an allure to that, especially if you can get in on the leading edge of a wave. The trend towards 3 legacy carriers and Southwest essentially dominating the US industry will probably lend that side of things the greatest stability they've had since deregulation especially since it seems unlikely that those pilot groups will yield any further on scope clauses and 50 seat RJ's have been dying for years now and aren't being replaced 1 for 1. I know it doesn't seem that way to those of us who deadhead out of MEM and SDF, but it is true. Also when you look at the pilot bases of the pax carriers vs. Purple/Brown, there are a lot more choices for a prospective employee and it takes far less time to get into the other bases than it does to get out of the junior bases at Purple/Brown. Just because I'm satisfied where I work, doesn't mean that I cannot see legitimate reasons why others have and will continue to chose to work elsewhere.

RedeyeAV8r

To correct your assumption, FDX's Contract if anything "Saved" the JR crew members. I'll be the 1st to admit the MGT took complete advantage of vague contract language and continues to the inequitable transfer of wealth so to speak. I doubt any FDX guy in the bottom 400 is whining about how this contract wasn't beneficial to them at least where 4 a 2 b is concerned. Now anyone in the upper 3000 or so most likely has a different take..

If anyone here was thrown to the wolves it was the Pilots (not in any furlough danger) but who were displaced to lower paying seats, lost 10-15 hours a month in BLG's all the while with no one actually being furloughed as well as anyone trying to work on their HI 5.

and FYI. most of us are not "Gushing" over anything. We just want to get back was is rightfully ours.

Just 1 FDX guys opinion.

Timeoff2fish

I think the company's decision to invoke 4a2b (our contractual provision to reduce line values) sucked, and its continued "justification" is complete BS, but it is much better than getting furloughed. Maybe like getting thrown to some kind of medium sized terrier/boxer mix rather than the wolves.

While pay was reduced unevenly, the vast majority of pilots at FDX were supportive of us junior guys in that there were very,very few senior people calling for our heads in an effort to return their line values to normal.

I wouldn't call that throwing junior people to the wolves. In fact, I would call it the exact opposite.

FreightDawgyDog

[QUOTE=Albief15;807359

I would also suspect that there are a few UPS and FedEx guys that have employee numbers from DAL that might strongly consider going back if it were somehow possible. While air cargo has had a fantastic run, the last economic cycle showed more contraction in freight than in passenger business. The change in retirement age, the elimination of 3 pilot aircraft, overseas bases, and overall slow advancement for a mid 2000s hire might have some families having some interesting conversations around dinner tables. The "security" of the cargo business really evaporated for a lot guys the last 2 years..especially at UPS. It will get good again...but "good" is going to be a very long wait for some guys at the bottom of the lists.

[/QUOTE]

Interesting take. How many UPS/FedEx pilots suffered furlough since the early 90's vs how many mainline? To me that is where the job security and stability lie. Certainly cargo suffered greatly from the Age 65 retro policy that not only stagnated seniority advancement but actually reversed it. Add to that those willing to fly far beyond a normal BLG at FDX while others are being hit with 4a2b and the hit was worsened there. All in all, I think those that have a chance to go to DAL and FedEx/UPS would do well to speak with those that have made that decision in the past. My guess is most wish they would have come to cargo or are glad they did.

Adlerdriver

Can't speak to the UPS guys but weren't the Fedex guys required to resign from DAL (etc.) as a condition of their hiring? This all came to a boil last year around this time when DAL/NWA started scrubbing their lists in prep for their integration. Fedex didn't take too kindly to the guys who managed to keep a recall option somewhere else. The UAL/CAL coupling may start shining bright lights in some grey areas of their lists very soon.

If any Fedex pilot is still clinging to a potential recall elsewhere, they may HAVE to take it if what they're doing comes to light w/ the purple bosses. Just a heads up.

DLax85

Shack! ...especially the last sentence.

4.a.2.b. is/was disingenuious on many levels ---- but hats off to all of those who directly, or indirectly, supported the junior folks the past 18 months!!