Lab Rat

I don't think anybody is saying that the TA is an absolute gem, but I think people are starting to look at it for what it actualy is - a proposal and voting accordingly.

Sure, I was a definite "no" vote when it first came out, but after I separated myself from all of the b!tching and opinions floating around and actually read it for myself, my opinion changed. Do I love it? No, but I like it enough where I can live under it if it is voted in, and I don't see enough negatives to necessitate an overwhelming no vote. One has to weigh the positives and the negatives.

I don't care that a person votes one way or another, just as long as each person can separate fact from fiction, read it for what it is, and make a determination if you and your family can live under this. Majority rules, and if it is voted in we deal with it as a group. If it is voted down, we regroup together and work as a team to get something we can work under.

My personal guess, and I am not aiming this at you, is that many who say they are voting "no" will probably end up voting "yes". If you want my my opinion, those are the ones you want to watch when it comes to crossing a picket line.

Lab Rat

OOTSK,

I respectfully disagree. As an observation, I think it has more to do with people picking up tons of open time during "normal" times, as well as people accepting JA's. Personally, I think if nobody picked up extra flying during any time, we would at least see more hiring, if not more upgrades as well.

767pilot

What would I be nervous at, that it would break my company? They are doing quite well thank you, and at the point where they aren't and can't afford to pay this much, they can and will come to talk to us. Traditionally the pilots groups have been the first to give back and the most generous if it is needed as we have th emost to lose. I am proud of my paycheck and don't feel the need to wear a mask or back up to the pay window when it is my turn to pikc up my paycheck

IPAMD11FO

Two great posts!

Whether this TA goes through or not, Bob is not the answer to our problems. We are the problem. We think we are smarter than our elected reps, hired consultants, and the company. The midterm agreement for the MD11 IRO is a good example. In hindsight, it was a pretty good deal. We would've had some things now that we wish we had in this TA. 125% OT, $39k for new hires, etc. We turned it down because we wanted to poke the company in the eye. Well, guess what? They got their IROs anyway and we were left holding the bag. We really showed them! My opinion only, but I see the same thing happening again if this goes down.

Telling people to grow a pair or calling them names because you don't like their opinion doesn't help build unity. This will only divide us further! Pass or fail, we will have to work together for a long time. This is a business deal. Keep your emotions out of it. If you think it's fair, vote yes. If not, vote no. Seems pretty simple to me.

Priority 3

Bingo, IPAMD11FO. Add to that an entitlement attitude of many of our pilots, and you get the kind of nonsensical, emotional ranting that's going on right now over this T/A.

BIGBROWNDC8

pilot7576,
I never promised anything to anyone about "meeting" them anywhere... What are you talking about. Did I miss something or say something that may be interpeted as a threat? Let me know. Im not trying to threaten anyone if that is what you are talking about, this is a messege board not the "Fight Club" and if I did say that, I would issue an apology immediately... Please show me... I went back and read my post and didnt see anything like that...

Im disagree with P3 because he admits this TA is bad and then says he will vote yes for it anyway because he is scared.

Im glad you have decided that this TA works for you, I expect that you will vote yes and as far as Im concerned, (not that you care, but) thats fine with me. But to think this TA is a bad deal and you only motivation to vote yes is fear. I have a difficult time understanding that...

You seem quick to slander the IPA instructors for working in the training center. Do you really want us all to stop working there and let the Managers run every aspect of training????

I use my sicktime when ever I need it and NEVER fear any reprisal for doing so, If I use it all, that fine with me, If not and the rule is that you get a sick time check like everyone else, including you, that is fine with me too... Sick time is sick time, I use when Im sick... Period... I dont call in sick when Im not sick...

NO, I have NEVER traded a trip of anything... EVER... Ive ALWAYS been on reserve since Ive been hired here... and most the time, not by my choice...

Next question...

BBDC8

To Stay or Go

Sent by mistake to BBDC8

Pilot7576

BBDC8...

Now you know how I'm going to vote? Talk about reading something into nothing! My examples of you in the training center/sick buy back/trading was not a slam at you, it was listing the different ways OTHERS can look at each pilot and say "you're not doing your part for the union." I'm not saying it's right or accurate, it's all perception.

Your comments about p3 voting yes and so must be a mgmt candidate is what drove my response. Perhaps it was tic, but you never indicated that. I am going to vote (yes or no) based on the total package, not out of fear. If the ta fails by a small majority, the new ta will be only subtly better than this one, and there is a chance it will be substantially worse. The two most important items to me are scope and scheduling...everything else is secondary. If you don't have scope, you don't have growth and if you don't have scheduling, you won't last long enough to enjoy whatever retirement we negotiate. Luby says scope is the best bar none; I have to trust that assessment because I'm not a scope guru. When CD comes out with the bid packs, I'll see if the scheduling will work.

Just as an aside, federal ended up settling on a ta that was less than the agreement that their nc refused to send to the membership for a vote. Revisionist history always looks good in arguments, but ask one of your federal friends to show you the copy of the letter that fred sent to the families during the last negotiations....the "with or without you" letter.

Just some food for thought. No matter how the vote turns out, we will have to stand together. Your post to p3 really doesn't support that unity.

JMO

Pilot7576

Rocket Bob

Careful tossing out those "concessionary contract" phrases in a room full of DAL, UAL, USAir, NWA, AMR pilots, you may get punched in the face. Does UPS make 4 bill. a year, yeah... And if every other employee feels the same sense of entitlement that we have exhibited over the next few years, this company will be bleeding. Big Brown will have the same problems that now plague other big companies, high labor costs, pension problems, health care issues, etc., just a matter of time.

jungle

The common denominator with those "other" big companies is not cost of labor but a failure to respond to the market and provide a properly priced, competitive product. There has been a lot of blame placed on the Unions, but it is well to remember that both management and the Unions entered into the agreement. It is also wise to remember that these agreements have long been voided, yet are still blamed for current poor performance. We have never approached peak Legacy pay rates and are still a long way off with the current TA despite tremendous profits.
The Legacy carriers are in a much more competitive market than FEDEX or UPS because the capital costs to enter the package market are very much higher than the passenger market.