FR8TFLYER

Are you personal friends with RB, if so I am sorry to hear that? He is still in PVG as of Sunday evening, have youi been talking with him on Skype?

notadog

Fact check. The "position" of the IPA is not binding in any way. The fact is that after the NMB determines whether the FQMs are covered employees in class and craft, the method of accretion of those employees is determined by negotiation between the company and the union. The FQMs have to trust the IPA will follow through.

DOH is not as simple as some seem to think. It will require negotiation.

CactusCrew

What the IPA's position represents, is that when it comes to placing the FQS on our seniority list, it will be their own company pushing to place them anywhere but DOH.

Retalitory management, not in the least ...

SaltyDog

Our statement are compatible. No disagreement. However, UPS management is officially on record as stating that FQS' will be placed at the bottom and that they are not 'crewmembers'. Management is the only one whose start of negotiation is to staple on the bottom. Interesting they want to retaliate that way.
IPA has publicly stated would start at DOH. Seems the IPA is already working favorably to accretion that includes that date of hire and all else that goes with current duties. FQM's are all smart folks, cut the chaff, and so are many line pilots. Accretion is aimed at keeping a postion comfortable for your families and job satisfaction level. Why would we want a bunch of dissatisfied members?
Regards from the line.

notadog

UPS management points out that the Agreement between the IPA and the company clearly defines (1) the definition of "crewmember", which specifically excludes management crewmembers (aka FQMs), and (2) clearly defines how crewmembers are placed on the seniority list. The company may have a valid argument that the President of the IPA simply cannot guarantee placement anywhere other than the bottom of the list without first amending Article 2 and Article 8 of the contract. An amendment to the contract would require agreement from both parties, (and a vote) and it sure doesn't look like UPS is interested in negotiating the issue. The letter from Mr. Casey is an interesting read, and I would assume they have done their homework.

The NMB will only certify the FQMs eligibility under class and craft. They will not negotiate or order accretion. That is up to the IPA and UPS to negotiate. If the company chooses to not negotiate, the FQMs could be in limbo for a long time. Will they roll those dice? We'll see.

Jonathan E

I'll go out on a limb here. If we win the "craft and Class" issue (and we will), won't the company be excluded? It will be negoiated (with NMB help) between the IPA and the FQMs. Just like DAL and NW unions merging. To the NMB, how or why would it be any of UPS's concern?

767pilot

yes and no. The company is out of it but there need not be any merger. If we sat down to negotiate, who would the legal representative of a non union pilot force be? There is none. I'd expect our generosity would be over if we have to go at it from that direction. There is a better deal on the table now.

notadog

You are right on. This is the best deal the FQMs are going to get, and they should be happy to get a seniority number where ever it may be on the list. If we petition the NMB and get the jobs covered, then we own them, and the FQMs can go write bulletins while IPA pilots fly airplanes.

Frankly, I couldn't care less if a bunch of managers who have been screwing us for years gets IPA representation. They don't deserve it, particularly the ones who gave up their numbers to go to management.

My bet is we won't see the FQMs achieve 50% +1. Then the fun really begins.

notadog

Because we have a contract in place that permits the FQMs to do some of the work that we own.

Here's the issue. The IPA is gambling here, too. We already own the flying jobs, with the exception of those FQM jobs permitted by our contract. Read the Scope Article. If the FQMs do not achieve the majority needed, then the IPA can go after the jobs (primarily training and checking), but would have to negotiate the process of filling those jobs with IPA crewmembers. We would gain those positions, but the company would still have the right to MEF and MPF.

The IPA cannot force the FQMs to join the union.

UPSierra

Please read the 1995 IPA position on Class and Craft that was filed as a legal document IN SUPPORT OF THE MANAGEMENT STRUCTURE AT UPS. The IPA plain and simply hung Dorsey out to dry in court and clearly distanced themselves from the FQS' when Dorsey and his group of supervisors advocated for joining the IPA. In fact, the IPA was completely in bed with the company's position in the class and craft argument. WOW, isn't that special!!!!!

The record is the record and the IPA cannot undo past statements. Revisionism might work in politics, but it will not withstand the legal challenge of the IPA position of 1995 vs. the IPA position of 2010. Besides, one of the three seats held by the NMB is with someone who intimately understands the IPA's whole-hearted support of the management structure and the right for management to maintain flight qualifications and line currency. After all, she spent several years directly mediating the last contract. THE IPA SIGNED AN AGREEMENT RECOGNIZING THIS STRUCTURE, and if anyone thinks that the contract is not a legally binding document in this argument, then don't be surprised when you exhaust your treasury on Mr. Katz's legal fees with nothing to show for it.

Another point...There is no way that FQS' can trust the IPA to fight for DOH. We all know the IPA will immediately settle for stapling them to the bottom because that is what the CONTRACTS states. Anything different will requires years of legal challenges and UPS will not be on the side of the new IPA members.

Let's be honest...Can anyone reading this post provide one example in the history of our industry when "pilot group A" aggressively fought for "pilot group B's" seniority rights to ensure that pilot group B has a higher seniority than pilot group A? Once the IPA gets the required number of cards, they will have all they need. There is absolutely no motivation to represent your new members, except to wish them well during their furlough.

Nice try guys, but it ain't happening! You will get a few, but not many. My guess is <10%. Most FQS' see this as a classic example of a pending case of "bait and switch."