Union Cards sent to UPS Flt Qual MGRs??
03-11-2010, 10:34 AM
#91
Where's my Mai Tai?
Joined APC: Aug 2006
Position: fins to the left, fins to the right
Posts: 1,754
So what says UPS will give the current FQS jobs to the IPA even if they manglers send in enough cards? Sure you can join the IPA, have fun on the line and we'll just hire a new bunch of managers.
I haven't seen anything about getting the positions to be the same craft and class, just getting the managers. Needless to say, I don't care for it until some one explains how we'll get the jobs.
I haven't seen anything about getting the positions to be the same craft and class, just getting the managers. Needless to say, I don't care for it until some one explains how we'll get the jobs.
03-11-2010, 10:48 AM
#92
Line Holder
Joined APC: Feb 2009
Posts: 38
I think a lot of the frustration coming out is from a lack of communication. BT ran for President on the platform of playing hardball against the company. His idea was to tell the company to shove it and to "take care of our own." Well, UPS turned downed the MOU savings and we all know where we stand today.
BT ran with the idea that the IPA would provide COBRA coverage and a stipend of up to $3000/month for furloughees. I'm not saying this should or shouldn't happen, but the President of the IPA ran and won on this idea (among others). We've now had over a month since the furlough notices went out, and pretty much silence from the EB on this other than saying they were looking into it. I know there are lots of things going on behind the scenes, but the folks about to hit the street are hearing nothing but crickets.
I was not a fan of BT when he ran, but I'm pleased with his performance so far. There are a few people on here and the B&G who are venting and that shouldn't be suprising. As a future furloughee, I don't expect anything from the IPA. However, if IPA members want to say they take care of their own, it starts with providing COBRA coverage for furloughees. That's not entitlement, just a reasonable expectation after what we've been hearing from the pilot group. If there is no intention of providing any benefits, then the IPA President shouldn't have brought it up in the first place. I think some of the people ****ing and moaning on both the top and bottom of the list is juvenile. That goes for the junior guys complaining about getting sold out and it also applies to the senior moron who doesn't even realize that none of the 300 were here for contract ratification and got no signing bonus.
Bottom line, it's a crappy situation that we're in, but it's not the IPA's fault. I have faith that the EB will do what's in the best interest of the entire group, but it sure would help to have a little more communication on what, if any, assistance will be offered.
BT ran with the idea that the IPA would provide COBRA coverage and a stipend of up to $3000/month for furloughees. I'm not saying this should or shouldn't happen, but the President of the IPA ran and won on this idea (among others). We've now had over a month since the furlough notices went out, and pretty much silence from the EB on this other than saying they were looking into it. I know there are lots of things going on behind the scenes, but the folks about to hit the street are hearing nothing but crickets.
I was not a fan of BT when he ran, but I'm pleased with his performance so far. There are a few people on here and the B&G who are venting and that shouldn't be suprising. As a future furloughee, I don't expect anything from the IPA. However, if IPA members want to say they take care of their own, it starts with providing COBRA coverage for furloughees. That's not entitlement, just a reasonable expectation after what we've been hearing from the pilot group. If there is no intention of providing any benefits, then the IPA President shouldn't have brought it up in the first place. I think some of the people ****ing and moaning on both the top and bottom of the list is juvenile. That goes for the junior guys complaining about getting sold out and it also applies to the senior moron who doesn't even realize that none of the 300 were here for contract ratification and got no signing bonus.
Bottom line, it's a crappy situation that we're in, but it's not the IPA's fault. I have faith that the EB will do what's in the best interest of the entire group, but it sure would help to have a little more communication on what, if any, assistance will be offered.
03-11-2010, 10:49 AM
#93
Freightmama!
Joined APC: Dec 2005
Position: 757/767 FO
Posts: 2,880
I'll start the noose, just won't tighten it ...
First off, I hope you are saying this based upon your vast life experiences and airline furloughs. If you are I find it difficult to believe that you think a job flipping burgers could cover COBRA medical coverage for a family, let alone cover other living expenses. Have you travelled this economic reality already ?
And if a smaller group (1800) ALPA pilots could pick up the tab for medical coverage for a comparable amount of furloughed crewmembers (200) on half the income of a typical IPA pilot, we should be ashamed of ourselves if we don't do the same thing.
Awhile back when the whole furlough and MOU was started a year ago, B767pilot asked me privately what I would expect from the IPA. I don't expect a stipend, etc ... but medical coverage for those that do not have access to another form would be the only thing that I think the IPA should do. It is the right thing for a union to do, call me an idealist, whatever ! No man left behind ...
Major medical is the only thing that has me worried. I have a war chest to support my family for quite a long time otherwise. You of all people (expecting mother) should know that good medical care doesn't come cheaply. And it is nothing you should expect another union member to do without, under any circumstances.
You would like that person to watch your back down the road, so don't throw them completely to the side of the road. It won't do any good for either side of the furlough line.
Been there and done that ....
First off, I hope you are saying this based upon your vast life experiences and airline furloughs. If you are I find it difficult to believe that you think a job flipping burgers could cover COBRA medical coverage for a family, let alone cover other living expenses. Have you travelled this economic reality already ?
And if a smaller group (1800) ALPA pilots could pick up the tab for medical coverage for a comparable amount of furloughed crewmembers (200) on half the income of a typical IPA pilot, we should be ashamed of ourselves if we don't do the same thing.
Awhile back when the whole furlough and MOU was started a year ago, B767pilot asked me privately what I would expect from the IPA. I don't expect a stipend, etc ... but medical coverage for those that do not have access to another form would be the only thing that I think the IPA should do. It is the right thing for a union to do, call me an idealist, whatever ! No man left behind ...
Major medical is the only thing that has me worried. I have a war chest to support my family for quite a long time otherwise. You of all people (expecting mother) should know that good medical care doesn't come cheaply. And it is nothing you should expect another union member to do without, under any circumstances.
You would like that person to watch your back down the road, so don't throw them completely to the side of the road. It won't do any good for either side of the furlough line.
Been there and done that ....
No, I have never been furloughed but I've been around long enough to see that furloughs happen at most airlines. Hopefully you are not caught up in that wave but if you are, you need to be prepared. I was lucky that early in my flying career, one of my CFIs advised me against getting an aviation degree. I got a degree in something else that I can fall back on. I realize that not everyone was lucky enough to get that kind of advice but if you've been furloughed (ESPECIALLY if you've been furloughed) or seen it happen to other people, maybe that should be a wake up call that you cannot just depend on this career alone to support a family. Maybe the wife should be getting a degree herself while times are good just in case. Maybe you should save a little more money when times are good just in case. Maybe you should make those extra mortgage payments when you can just in case. I'm just saying that ultimately you should expect nothing from anyone because you are just setting yourself up for disappointment. There is nothing more comforting for me personally than knowing that if UPS were to furlough 500 pilots and I'm one of them....no big deal. I can get another job and I don't need to sell my house because it's almost paid off. Were there sacrifices I made to be in that situation? Yes....we don't own new cars, never had a flat screen TV, only take one small vacation a year, etc. Is it worth it for my sanity and security? Hell yes! If you want to be mad at me for saying it like it is, fine but I know that in the end, it's MY responsibility to feed my family.
03-11-2010, 10:53 AM
#94
Freightmama!
Joined APC: Dec 2005
Position: 757/767 FO
Posts: 2,880
Also, if I wasn't able to "suck off the mutual aid teat" because it wasn't there, I would be fine too. I wouldn't be expecting everyone else to bail me out.
03-11-2010, 10:58 AM
#95
Freightmama!
Joined APC: Dec 2005
Position: 757/767 FO
Posts: 2,880
However, if IPA members want to say they take care of their own, it starts with providing COBRA coverage for furloughees. That's not entitlement, just a reasonable expectation after what we've been hearing from the pilot group. If there is no intention of providing any benefits, then the IPA President shouldn't have brought it up in the first place.
03-11-2010, 11:29 AM
#97
New Hire
Joined APC: Feb 2005
Position: B757 F/O
Posts: 8
I actually thought the language of the amendment in question allowed only for the EB to "move forward" on bringing the FQMs onboard. I did NOT think the EB could determine terms of integration (seniority list) on their own without a vote. I'm calling shennanigans until Salty or someone can produce language that states otherwise...
This is a quote from the EB last fall: Proposed Amendment #1 removes the current C&B barrier to organizing UPS Flight Qualified Supervisors. The amendment would allow the Executive Board to move forward on this issue at a time of the Board’s choosing without the constraint of a constitutional provision that is contrary to this goal.
This card issue was rushed and not very well thought out. I have heard from many FQS' they they will not vote because there are too many unknowns. This appears to be an ill timed bomb thrown by this "shoot, aim" EB of 2010. Leadership takes courage, of which there is a vacuum at the marble palace.
03-11-2010, 11:32 AM
#98
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2007
Position: 109% IPA
Posts: 159
Freightpuppy,
First I am glad you recovered from your medical complication and you are well.
I am speaking for myself not the other 299 so don't punish others for my opinions and observations. The majority of the 300 don't want or expect anything from the IPA we also never wanted the contract opened.
Cobra for furloughees is very standard even at ALPA and regional airlines like the one I came from. The current IPA president who was against the MOU but for other options is now in office so some are wondering about the campaign promises. When asked at the last ANC meeting they said it was noted and would look into it. I was at the ANC meeting a couple of weeks ago and it was very heated some actually walked out. Besides the technical dificulties BT bed side manner was not good. That being said I would rather have a horrible communicator and the best surgeon and I think BT is doing well.
Some very important stuff to those of us getting furloughed in 2 months are cobra benfits possibly being paid, but more important resignation of our seniority for other flying jobs over seas, Also is the lack of furlough recall language in the current contract. I feel that this will be a long furlough (many disagree and some still think it won't happen) and all the foreign contracts are 3-5 years and almost all have trainng bonds that if broken we have to pay sometimes 20-30 thousand dollars. The EB said they are looking into it.
These are not things I expect but are very important if I get an interview or a job opportunity over seas. We all know in pursuing flying jobs are not easy and take a while to get if at all. No one wants to risk loosing their recall rights to IPA/UPS.
I too do not have a flying degree, however jobs outside of aviation where I and many others live don't exist. I am not crying about it I am dealing with it the best I can. I would like to know what your degree is or are you a hottie?
J/K I am not a DILF so no pharmaceutical sales for me!
The FQS is a great thing for sure no one would deny it all though some on the B&G are celebrating as if we have won and as far as I can tell it will take a while before any celebrtion. Some in the 300 just don't have enough info right now on how it will work and more important not prolong a furlough or create another furlough down the road by adding 130 FQS senior to most of us in the 300 as some are implying on the B&G.
I am sorry, but A type personalities don't ever here the words "trust me or your EB or UPS) and say okay. While I know the IPA and the EB have all of our best interests at hand sometimes it doesn't work out that way. To follow blindly or faithfully is not in most of our analytical minds. We need facts, statistics, the gouge, and more info. So we are seeing a little paranoia from those on the chopping block especially if they have seen the IPA presentation of doom and gloom.
I only know you from your posts and you seem like you have given a lot in the MOU etc for the bottom 300 thank you for that. So please be patient with those venting here remember APC is for "entitled" the Bar&Grill is for the Party Liners and a few senior cyber bullies. The bottom 300 are expected by all to just tug the party line, have faith in our EB, and keep quiet or we will label you ungreatful, entitled, weak, helping mngmnt, not unified, add insult here.
I hope all of our concerns are for nothing, but I think reality and data is showing we have entered a new era at the IPA/UPS only time will tell.
100% IPA
First I am glad you recovered from your medical complication and you are well.
I am speaking for myself not the other 299 so don't punish others for my opinions and observations. The majority of the 300 don't want or expect anything from the IPA we also never wanted the contract opened.
Cobra for furloughees is very standard even at ALPA and regional airlines like the one I came from. The current IPA president who was against the MOU but for other options is now in office so some are wondering about the campaign promises. When asked at the last ANC meeting they said it was noted and would look into it. I was at the ANC meeting a couple of weeks ago and it was very heated some actually walked out. Besides the technical dificulties BT bed side manner was not good. That being said I would rather have a horrible communicator and the best surgeon and I think BT is doing well.
Some very important stuff to those of us getting furloughed in 2 months are cobra benfits possibly being paid, but more important resignation of our seniority for other flying jobs over seas, Also is the lack of furlough recall language in the current contract. I feel that this will be a long furlough (many disagree and some still think it won't happen) and all the foreign contracts are 3-5 years and almost all have trainng bonds that if broken we have to pay sometimes 20-30 thousand dollars. The EB said they are looking into it.
These are not things I expect but are very important if I get an interview or a job opportunity over seas. We all know in pursuing flying jobs are not easy and take a while to get if at all. No one wants to risk loosing their recall rights to IPA/UPS.
I too do not have a flying degree, however jobs outside of aviation where I and many others live don't exist. I am not crying about it I am dealing with it the best I can. I would like to know what your degree is or are you a hottie?
J/K I am not a DILF so no pharmaceutical sales for me!The FQS is a great thing for sure no one would deny it all though some on the B&G are celebrating as if we have won and as far as I can tell it will take a while before any celebrtion. Some in the 300 just don't have enough info right now on how it will work and more important not prolong a furlough or create another furlough down the road by adding 130 FQS senior to most of us in the 300 as some are implying on the B&G.
I am sorry, but A type personalities don't ever here the words "trust me or your EB or UPS) and say okay. While I know the IPA and the EB have all of our best interests at hand sometimes it doesn't work out that way. To follow blindly or faithfully is not in most of our analytical minds. We need facts, statistics, the gouge, and more info. So we are seeing a little paranoia from those on the chopping block especially if they have seen the IPA presentation of doom and gloom.
I only know you from your posts and you seem like you have given a lot in the MOU etc for the bottom 300 thank you for that. So please be patient with those venting here remember APC is for "entitled" the Bar&Grill is for the Party Liners and a few senior cyber bullies. The bottom 300 are expected by all to just tug the party line, have faith in our EB, and keep quiet or we will label you ungreatful, entitled, weak, helping mngmnt, not unified, add insult here.
I hope all of our concerns are for nothing, but I think reality and data is showing we have entered a new era at the IPA/UPS only time will tell.
100% IPA
Last edited by Waborita; 03-11-2010 at 03:41 PM.
03-11-2010, 11:39 AM
#99
Line Holder
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Posts: 88
I'll start the noose, just won't tighten it ...
First off, I hope you are saying this based upon your vast life experiences and airline furloughs. If you are I find it difficult to believe that you think a job flipping burgers could cover COBRA medical coverage for a family, let alone cover other living expenses. Have you travelled this economic reality already ?
And if a smaller group (1800) ALPA pilots could pick up the tab for medical coverage for a comparable amount of furloughed crewmembers (200) on half the income of a typical IPA pilot, we should be ashamed of ourselves if we don't do the same thing.
Awhile back when the whole furlough and MOU was started a year ago, B767pilot asked me privately what I would expect from the IPA. I don't expect a stipend, etc ... but medical coverage for those that do not have access to another form would be the only thing that I think the IPA should do. It is the right thing for a union to do, call me an idealist, whatever ! No man left behind ...
Major medical is the only thing that has me worried. I have a war chest to support my family for quite a long time otherwise. You of all people (expecting mother) should know that good medical care doesn't come cheaply. And it is nothing you should expect another union member to do without, under any circumstances.
You would like that person to watch your back down the road, so don't throw them completely to the side of the road. It won't do any good for either side of the furlough line.
Been there and done that ....
First off, I hope you are saying this based upon your vast life experiences and airline furloughs. If you are I find it difficult to believe that you think a job flipping burgers could cover COBRA medical coverage for a family, let alone cover other living expenses. Have you travelled this economic reality already ?
And if a smaller group (1800) ALPA pilots could pick up the tab for medical coverage for a comparable amount of furloughed crewmembers (200) on half the income of a typical IPA pilot, we should be ashamed of ourselves if we don't do the same thing.
Awhile back when the whole furlough and MOU was started a year ago, B767pilot asked me privately what I would expect from the IPA. I don't expect a stipend, etc ... but medical coverage for those that do not have access to another form would be the only thing that I think the IPA should do. It is the right thing for a union to do, call me an idealist, whatever ! No man left behind ...
Major medical is the only thing that has me worried. I have a war chest to support my family for quite a long time otherwise. You of all people (expecting mother) should know that good medical care doesn't come cheaply. And it is nothing you should expect another union member to do without, under any circumstances.
You would like that person to watch your back down the road, so don't throw them completely to the side of the road. It won't do any good for either side of the furlough line.
Been there and done that ....
03-11-2010, 11:44 AM
#100
Freightmama!
Joined APC: Dec 2005
Position: 757/767 FO
Posts: 2,880
Hey Waborita,
I really really am not trying to be a biatch here and trust me, I feel very very horrible about this situation and I feel for anyone that loses their job. I just got annoyed from the context of one person's post and I probably overreacted. The entire thing is just a crappy situation and I hope it all works out. I don't want anyone to think that they are being thrown under the bus or forgotten or anything like that. I truly think the union is doing their best but maybe I am naive? I hope not.
My degree is in nursing and I'll always be greatful to a certain UPS A300 FO who used to be my flight instructor that led me in that direction.
I really really am not trying to be a biatch here and trust me, I feel very very horrible about this situation and I feel for anyone that loses their job. I just got annoyed from the context of one person's post and I probably overreacted. The entire thing is just a crappy situation and I hope it all works out. I don't want anyone to think that they are being thrown under the bus or forgotten or anything like that. I truly think the union is doing their best but maybe I am naive? I hope not.
My degree is in nursing and I'll always be greatful to a certain UPS A300 FO who used to be my flight instructor that led me in that direction.
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