FDR-CVR monitoriing for disciplinary actions
03-06-2010, 08:58 PM
#53
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2007
Posts: 355
I am always amazed at the number of otherwise intelligent people that fall for this point of view. Here is the real big picture:
"Union density (the percentage of workers belonging to unions) has been declining since the late 1940s, however. Almost 36% of American workers were represented by unions in 1945. Historically, the rapid growth of public employee unions since the 1960s has served to mask an even more dramatic decline in private-sector union membership.
At the apex of union density in the 1940s, only about 9.8% of public employees were represented by unions, while 33.9% of private, non-agricultural workers had such representation. In this decade, those proportions have essentially reversed, with 36% of public workers being represented by unions while private sector union density had plummeted to around 7%. Recently, workers have increasingly chosen union membership. The US Bureau of Labor Statistics most recent survey indicates that union membership in the US has risen to 12.4% of all workers, from 12.1% in 2007. Private sector union membership has rebounded as well, increasing from 7.5% in 2007 to 7.6% in 2008."
Unions have been crushed by both parties for the last seventy years, except in the public sector.
Politicos have shown exceptional skill at feathering their own nest and bankrupting the country and little else.
Both sides will lie to you and gladly take your money, but now you know the result over the long term.
In the end, you will understand that paying some greasy pimp in a suit for a favor just doesn't work out in the long run for anybody except the greasy pimp, and you might want to ask yourself why you are paying for something that rightfully belongs to you anyway. That would be equal treatment under the law.
"Union density (the percentage of workers belonging to unions) has been declining since the late 1940s, however. Almost 36% of American workers were represented by unions in 1945. Historically, the rapid growth of public employee unions since the 1960s has served to mask an even more dramatic decline in private-sector union membership.
At the apex of union density in the 1940s, only about 9.8% of public employees were represented by unions, while 33.9% of private, non-agricultural workers had such representation. In this decade, those proportions have essentially reversed, with 36% of public workers being represented by unions while private sector union density had plummeted to around 7%. Recently, workers have increasingly chosen union membership. The US Bureau of Labor Statistics most recent survey indicates that union membership in the US has risen to 12.4% of all workers, from 12.1% in 2007. Private sector union membership has rebounded as well, increasing from 7.5% in 2007 to 7.6% in 2008."
Unions have been crushed by both parties for the last seventy years, except in the public sector.
Politicos have shown exceptional skill at feathering their own nest and bankrupting the country and little else.
Both sides will lie to you and gladly take your money, but now you know the result over the long term.
In the end, you will understand that paying some greasy pimp in a suit for a favor just doesn't work out in the long run for anybody except the greasy pimp, and you might want to ask yourself why you are paying for something that rightfully belongs to you anyway. That would be equal treatment under the law.
1) You are correct, on biz & union membership, but the crushng has come primarily from one side of the aisle.
As a whole, people in Technical fields tend to be historically illiterate. Just look at how Corporations treat their Engineers. They don't get any of the royalties on their inventions and are generally forced out on the street by age 45. Yet they aren't historically literate enough to understand what is being done to them and their fellow engineers to form a real Union. Same thing with "skilled programmers, and biz wanting more HB1 visas while we have loads of programmers on the street. Exacerbating the problem is a combination of legislation, non-enforcment and other tactics that would discourage unions.
2) The effect of government &politics on our industry.
[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']Everything the airlines use to conduct their business is related to one level of [/FONT]
[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']government or another, but primarily the federal government due to interstate [/FONT][FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']commerce. As long as federal money is being pumped into the infrastructure of [/FONT][FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']the business (Runways, Terminals, land, ATC, Regulatory oversight (FAA budget), [/FONT][FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']GPS, ILS's, Approach light systems, VOR's, etc., etc.) the government will [/FONT][FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']always have a finger in the pie.[/FONT]
[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']Policy is driven by politics, political appointees at DoT, FAA, Labor, NMB etc, these folks have a Direct impact on how things "go"[/FONT]
[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']3) Historically the R's (in general-not all) support big biz, and promulgate or ignore efforts for the average American worker.[/FONT]
[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']4) Access matters- some quotes from Congressman Miller regarding access and constituent input on HR 2830, the Pension Protection legislation that was initially blocked by the R's, then ganered support, and eventually passed. "...we [FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']thought our support list should write thank you letters to Congressman Miller and [/FONT][FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']Congressman Rangel for the supreme effort in attempting to save pensions[/FONT][FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']. This comment was received by a chuckle, and the comment, “Jim, [/FONT][FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']it should be the other way around.” [/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif'][FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']I was surprised at this response and asked [/FONT][FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']what he meant by that and he said, “If it wasn’t for your group, the [/FONT][FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']Miller-Rangel bill would have never got to the point it did.” I was shocked at [/FONT][FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']this comment and he explained that if we had not bombarded the Congressman’s [/FONT][FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']offices with the 100’s of phone calls and faxes, they never would have had the [/FONT][FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']support to put this bill together. Congressman Miller’s committee office was [/FONT][FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']flooded with calls from other Congressmen saying they were being deluged with [/FONT][FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']phone calls and faxes and something had to be done."[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif'][/FONT]
[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif'][FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']Not saying these guys are saints, far from it if you read the news, but they supported legislation that had a positive affect on workers and airline workers in particular. [/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif'][/FONT]
[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif'][FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']5) Equal treatment under the law sounds good, but unfortunaltely, the ugly truth is that is not how washington works. We can either be realists, and attempt to influence legislation/policy THAT AFFECTS OUR CAREERS/livlihoood (note I did not mention anything about taxes/war/etc), or get run over by those that have an interest in the outcome. There is no coincidence that corporations outspend unions more than 10:1. They want policy/legislation/enforcement(or not) that favors their business (profit) interests.[/FONT]
[/FONT]
03-06-2010, 10:41 PM
#54
With The Resistance
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: Burning the Agitprop of the Apparat
Posts: 6,191
Not really clear on what point of view intelligent people are falling for.
1) You are correct, on biz & union membership, but the crushng has come primarily from one side of the aisle.
As a whole, people in Technical fields tend to be historically illiterate. Just look at how Corporations treat their Engineers. They don't get any of the royalties on their inventions and are generally forced out on the street by age 45. Yet they aren't historically literate enough to understand what is being done to them and their fellow engineers to form a real Union. Same thing with "skilled programmers, and biz wanting more HB1 visas while we have loads of programmers on the street. Exacerbating the problem is a combination of legislation, non-enforcment and other tactics that would discourage unions.
2) The effect of government &politics on our industry.
[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']Everything the airlines use to conduct their business is related to one level of [/FONT]
[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']government or another, but primarily the federal government due to interstate [/FONT][FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']commerce. As long as federal money is being pumped into the infrastructure of [/FONT][FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']the business (Runways, Terminals, land, ATC, Regulatory oversight (FAA budget), [/FONT][FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']GPS, ILS's, Approach light systems, VOR's, etc., etc.) the government will [/FONT][FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']always have a finger in the pie.[/FONT]
[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']Policy is driven by politics, political appointees at DoT, FAA, Labor, NMB etc, these folks have a Direct impact on how things "go"[/FONT]
[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']3) Historically the R's (in general-not all) support big biz, and promulgate or ignore efforts for the average American worker.[/FONT]
[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']4) Access matters- some quotes from Congressman Miller regarding access and constituent input on HR 2830, the Pension Protection legislation that was initially blocked by the R's, then ganered support, and eventually passed. "...we [FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']thought our support list should write thank you letters to Congressman Miller and [/FONT][FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']Congressman Rangel for the supreme effort in attempting to save pensions[/FONT][FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']. This comment was received by a chuckle, and the comment, “Jim, [/FONT][FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']it should be the other way around.” [/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif'][FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']I was surprised at this response and asked [/FONT][FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']what he meant by that and he said, “If it wasn’t for your group, the [/FONT][FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']Miller-Rangel bill would have never got to the point it did.” I was shocked at [/FONT][FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']this comment and he explained that if we had not bombarded the Congressman’s [/FONT][FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']offices with the 100’s of phone calls and faxes, they never would have had the [/FONT][FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']support to put this bill together. Congressman Miller’s committee office was [/FONT][FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']flooded with calls from other Congressmen saying they were being deluged with [/FONT][FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']phone calls and faxes and something had to be done."[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif'][FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']Not saying these guys are saints, far from it if you read the news, but they supported legislation that had a positive affect on workers and airline workers in particular. [/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif'][FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']5) Equal treatment under the law sounds good, but unfortunaltely, the ugly truth is that is not how washington works. We can either be realists, and attempt to influence legislation/policy THAT AFFECTS OUR CAREERS/livlihoood (note I did not mention anything about taxes/war/etc), or get run over by those that have an interest in the outcome. There is no coincidence that corporations outspend unions more than 10:1. They want policy/legislation/enforcement(or not) that favors their business (profit) interests.[/FONT]
[/FONT]
1) You are correct, on biz & union membership, but the crushng has come primarily from one side of the aisle.
As a whole, people in Technical fields tend to be historically illiterate. Just look at how Corporations treat their Engineers. They don't get any of the royalties on their inventions and are generally forced out on the street by age 45. Yet they aren't historically literate enough to understand what is being done to them and their fellow engineers to form a real Union. Same thing with "skilled programmers, and biz wanting more HB1 visas while we have loads of programmers on the street. Exacerbating the problem is a combination of legislation, non-enforcment and other tactics that would discourage unions.
2) The effect of government &politics on our industry.
[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']Everything the airlines use to conduct their business is related to one level of [/FONT]
[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']government or another, but primarily the federal government due to interstate [/FONT][FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']commerce. As long as federal money is being pumped into the infrastructure of [/FONT][FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']the business (Runways, Terminals, land, ATC, Regulatory oversight (FAA budget), [/FONT][FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']GPS, ILS's, Approach light systems, VOR's, etc., etc.) the government will [/FONT][FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']always have a finger in the pie.[/FONT]
[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']Policy is driven by politics, political appointees at DoT, FAA, Labor, NMB etc, these folks have a Direct impact on how things "go"[/FONT]
[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']3) Historically the R's (in general-not all) support big biz, and promulgate or ignore efforts for the average American worker.[/FONT]
[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']4) Access matters- some quotes from Congressman Miller regarding access and constituent input on HR 2830, the Pension Protection legislation that was initially blocked by the R's, then ganered support, and eventually passed. "...we [FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']thought our support list should write thank you letters to Congressman Miller and [/FONT][FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']Congressman Rangel for the supreme effort in attempting to save pensions[/FONT][FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']. This comment was received by a chuckle, and the comment, “Jim, [/FONT][FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']it should be the other way around.” [/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif'][FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']I was surprised at this response and asked [/FONT][FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']what he meant by that and he said, “If it wasn’t for your group, the [/FONT][FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']Miller-Rangel bill would have never got to the point it did.” I was shocked at [/FONT][FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']this comment and he explained that if we had not bombarded the Congressman’s [/FONT][FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']offices with the 100’s of phone calls and faxes, they never would have had the [/FONT][FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']support to put this bill together. Congressman Miller’s committee office was [/FONT][FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']flooded with calls from other Congressmen saying they were being deluged with [/FONT][FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']phone calls and faxes and something had to be done."[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif'][FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']Not saying these guys are saints, far from it if you read the news, but they supported legislation that had a positive affect on workers and airline workers in particular. [/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif'][FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']5) Equal treatment under the law sounds good, but unfortunaltely, the ugly truth is that is not how washington works. We can either be realists, and attempt to influence legislation/policy THAT AFFECTS OUR CAREERS/livlihoood (note I did not mention anything about taxes/war/etc), or get run over by those that have an interest in the outcome. There is no coincidence that corporations outspend unions more than 10:1. They want policy/legislation/enforcement(or not) that favors their business (profit) interests.[/FONT]
[/FONT]
Talk all you like, but the numbers show about an 80% crush rate for handing over money to greasy pimps in suits. You really can't talk those numbers away and you really can't talk about any successful negotiations with greasy pimps in suits. The pimps have been hugely successful at bankrupting the nation, why do you feel your little corner of the universe will be spared by paying tribute?
You have chosen to side with one party, but the truth is that both parties of greasy pimps in suits have handed you a failure after taking your money. Write, phone, whatever. Both sides have gutted you and are chewing on your liver. And now you want to talk?
Last edited by jungle; 03-06-2010 at 11:29 PM.
03-07-2010, 04:02 AM
#55
Retired
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Position: whale wrangler
Posts: 3,527
Try again, your message is garbled. But you can look at the real numbers or cherry pick data points to construct a fairey tale. I can show you the year over year numbers and if you can actually show a corellation I will kiss your...well I will call you a magician of mathematics.
Talk all you like, but the numbers show about an 80% crush rate for handing over money to greasy pimps in suits. You really can't talk those numbers away and you really can't talk about any successful negotiations with greasy pimps in suits. The pimps have been hugely successful at bankrupting the nation, why do you feel your little corner of the universe will be spared by paying tribute?
You have chosen to side with one party, but the truth is that both parties of greasy pimps in suits have handed you a failure after taking your money. Write, phone, whatever. Both sides have gutted you and are chewing on your liver. And now you want to talk?
Talk all you like, but the numbers show about an 80% crush rate for handing over money to greasy pimps in suits. You really can't talk those numbers away and you really can't talk about any successful negotiations with greasy pimps in suits. The pimps have been hugely successful at bankrupting the nation, why do you feel your little corner of the universe will be spared by paying tribute?
You have chosen to side with one party, but the truth is that both parties of greasy pimps in suits have handed you a failure after taking your money. Write, phone, whatever. Both sides have gutted you and are chewing on your liver. And now you want to talk?
Point goes to Jungle
Fred
03-07-2010, 07:34 AM
#56
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2006
Position: leaning to the left
Posts: 4,184
03-07-2010, 09:54 AM
#57
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2005
Position: 777 FO
Posts: 931
I just did it as well. As for ALPAPAC and politics in general...it is true that certain politicians SEEM to be more favorable to labor. It's also true that politicians from both sides of the aisle have been ramming it to us (sts) for generations. Personally, the results of our current mediation are going to serve as a litmus test for just how much certain administrations value labor or if money still talks.
03-07-2010, 11:54 AM
#58
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2006
Position: leaning to the left
Posts: 4,184
I just did it as well. As for ALPAPAC and politics in general...it is true that certain politicians SEEM to be more favorable to labor. It's also true that politicians from both sides of the aisle have been ramming it to us (sts) for generations. Personally, the results of our current mediation are going to serve as a litmus test for just how much certain administrations value labor or if money still talks.
You might be confusing him with the NMB?
03-07-2010, 12:09 PM
#59
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2005
Position: 777 FO
Posts: 931
Yep, I'm incorrect. I meant to say arbitration, not mediation. I was also under the mistaken impression that the arbitrator was "appointed" to the System Board of Adjustment. My bad.
03-07-2010, 01:21 PM
#60
With The Resistance
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: Burning the Agitprop of the Apparat
Posts: 6,191
I offer a heartfelt apology for comparing them to politicians.
Once in a while you will stumble upon the truth but most of us manage to pick ourselves up and hurry along as if nothing had happened.
Churchill
Last edited by jungle; 03-07-2010 at 01:31 PM.
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
