767pilot

simple problem of seniority. They got here before the bottom 400 guys did.

Buck92

The Associated Press: Recession intensifies GenX discontent at work

Freightpuppy

I'm just wondering why they kept so many >60 FEs on the property when they didn't even need them (remember 100 Capts, 100 FOs and 150 FEs on the 8?). I know you can't furlough out of seniority but if the rule was still 60 and you have 100 FE positions and 150 guys over 60, do you legally have to keep them for some reason? Couldn't they have just said "hey, you are over 60 and we don't have the positions for you?" I just don't understand why the company would keep the people that 1. hate them the most and 2. they have to pay the most but in the meantime they jipped me on 5 days of bereavement pay.

Roberto

Good points puppy! UPS should have followed the contract and gotten rid of those extra bodies <g>

Buck92

Sarcasm aside, what is the answer to her question? I understand you can't furlough from the top of the list, but was UPS contractually required to keep 300 people (or whatever it was) to fill 150 positions? The seniority argument seems off because those extra bodies could only legally fill a sideways seat (you're not giving preference to a junior guy because he's sitting in a seat the over-60 can't legally fill). What would have happened if all the FE slots had gone away before Age 60 change? Could the old guys have sued to keep getting paid for sitting in a seat that no longer existed? I don't see how that's any different from there being 150 seats and 300 people to fill them...150 people are "sitting" in seats that don't exist. I'm not bashing over-60s or trying to bait anyone... but it is difficult to understand why UPS kept so many people around if they didn't need to. If they did, then UPS isn't as good at contract negotiation as the conspiracy theorists give them credit for. Thanks.

767pilot

That whole thing was a mess. Yes, other airlines have parked fleets of three man airplanes and then told the age 60's that they no longer had a job (UAL). As we were having people hit 60 while we had the 8's, 74's, and 72's it was no problem slipping the guys into FE seats. Once filled though, teh problem came with what do you do to the next guy. Easy to say, "no seat, see ya", but what if he was senior. Should he have had bumping rights? I'm sure that the company tried to do it as cheaply as possible, and I'm fairly certain that our contract forced things to go as they did. Remember, we still had three man planes and >60 engineers when the rule changed to let people fly in window seats.

Any FDX guys want to chime in with how it happens there? Did you furlough >60 guys back then when the engineer seats were filled, give them bumping rights, or just add to the head count of engineers?

757upspilot

Or did they have more back seats than they had over sixties?

767pilot

yea, over there people could afford to retire instead of going back

SaltyDog

Freightpuppy,
Good question. The simple answer is that our contract protected them and the most junior crewmember. Contract gave all crews opportunity to downbid into S/O seats (which were available at the time the law changed). Leading up to that time, since the contract forced UPS to allow all crews turning 60 to downbid, it was simple: Either furlough junior crews (S/O's) or simply carry the extra seats. UPS chose the later to avoid a furlough. It just made sense not to furlough folks that at the time they were trying to get into F/O seats. (Training load problem).
Then, the law changed, this too was covered in the contract (Yep, Article 14, it allowed all over Age 60 crews to rebid vacancies for which they could hold. We can bellyache, but we got exactly what we negotiated and UPS followed the contract explicitly.
Hope this helps understand the dilemma UPS and IPA both faced with a triple collision: downturning business market, age 60 law change, and a good contract applied at the same time.
For those so inclined.......

Read Article 14. Start at 14.I.
Here is what is says.
14.I.2. A crewmember who desires to fly for the Company after
reaching the FAA mandated retirement age for a Captain or
First Officer/IRO position, may bid and be awarded a Second
Officer position in any aircraft type at his domicile. In either
case, if no vacancy exists, the crewmember who is
downbidding shall have the right to displace the most junior
Second Officer in the domicile on his aircraft type or, if the
crewmember is on an aircraft with only two (2) crew positions,
in another aircraft type at his domicile. If there are no available
Second Officer positions in the domicile, the downbidding
crewmember shall have the right to displace the most junior
Second Officer in the system.
- 329 - Article 14
a. In order to bid a Second Officer vacancy or displace a
junior Second Officer, the following conditions must be
met:
(1) Prior to bidding such a position or displacing a junior
Second Officer the crewmember must first provide the
Company with evidence that he possesses a valid
Flight Engineer’s certificate or that he has satisfactorily
passed the written portion of the FAA Flight Engineer
Turbojet Exam prior to or at the time he exercises his
bump.
(2) The crewmember who desires to downbid after
reaching the FAA mandated retirement age for a
Captain or First Officer/IRO position, shall provide
written notice to the Chief Pilot at least one (1) year
prior to reaching the FAA mandated age of his intent to
downbid.
b. Upon receipt of such written notice, the Company will
provide the necessary training for the Second Officer
position prior to or after reaching the FAA mandated
retirement age for a Captain or First Officer/IRO position.
The training will not be scheduled earlier than the bid
period prior to the one in which the crewmember reaches
the FAA mandated retirement age for a Captain or First
Officer/IRO position. The crewmember shall not be
activated as a Second Officer until the date of or after
reaching the FAA mandated retirement age for a Captain
or First Officer/IRO position. If the training for the Second
Officer position occurs prior to reaching the FAA mandated
retirement age for a Captain or First Officer/IRO position,
he shall continue to be paid based upon his bid position
prior to reaching this age. If the training for the Second
Officer position occurs after the crewmember reaches the
FAA mandated retirement age for a Captain or First
Officer/IRO position, he shall be paid at the Second Officer
rate beginning on this date.
c. The crewmember who downbids under this provision shall
be paid the appropriate Second Officer rate based upon
his longevity.
- 330 - Article 14
d. Such downbidding crewmember shall be entitled to
transition as provided in E.1.e.3. of this Article.
e. A crewmember who has downbid on account of age, to a
Second Officer position shall thereafter be designated on
the United Parcel Service Crewmember Seniority List as
ineligible for upgrades unless a change in the FARs alters
the age from the current age 60. All references to age
sixty (60) in this Section will automatically be changed to
reflect any age modification of the FARs. In the event the
FARs are so changed, any crewmember who has downbid
on account of age will be allowed to bid for and be
awarded any position his seniority will allow so long as he
possesses the required class medical for the position that
he is seeking. There shall be no change in status or pay
for a crewmember who is again eligible to upgrade as a
result of a change in the FARs unless he actually
upgrades.

Jetjok

FedEx didn't furlough. The day before I turned 60, I finished a MD-11 Captain pairing that returned from SEA to MEM. Memphis Center, upon our initial contact, congratulated me on my pending retirement, as did Approach Control as well as Tower and Ground. Turning into our slot, the fire trucks were there to spray the jet in their welcoming fashion. Inside operations, I found a nice big cake with another congratulatory message on it, and most of the guys there and I enjoyed it, with the free coffee and juice.

Because I turned 60 in March of '06, my options were to: 1) retire; or 2) go to the back seat of either the DC-10 or the 727. Initially I had told the company (about a month prior to my birthday) that I had planned to go to the back of the -10, with the expectation of continuing to fly until I had reached 20 years of service. After jumpseating home from my last flight as a captain, I started to think about having to learn a completely new jet. That plus the fact that although I was now 60 and had been at the company for 17 years, there were many, many more guys, both older than I as well as more senior than I, who were hanging out in the back seat. So quality of life reared its ugly head and about a week later I called the company and changed my request to the back of the 27.

I flew the back of the 727 for a little over a year, being content to do very little actual "flying", as I was senior and as such, I usually got my first or second choice. First Classing to Fresno, then operate FAT to OAK, then layover for 12 hours, then back to FAT. Four days of that and then FC back to Connecticut. Twice a month. It was like commuting between racquetball matches, which I played twice each day, once in Fresno at noon, and then again that night in Oakland.

Of course, the Age 60 rule was repealed in December of '07, but I had suffered a heart attack and was at home, deciding if it was worth it to return to flying. When the rule change happened, I asked the FAA what I needed to do to return to flying status (to regain my medical), as I was thinking about returning to the MD-11 Captains seat. However, a combination of things changed my mind and I decided to remain on the sidelines. And I can truthfully say that with all that's been happening within both FedEx and the airline industry, I glad that I did.

JJ