MaxKts

With all your abilities and highly tuned arse - a person would think that you would also be able to READ. Go back and reread Dominicans post that you keep quoting and realize he talks about differentiation between a hard landing and a hard landing that actually breaks something. He doesn't say he isn't going to write it up.

georgetg

Written Off does not equal DESTROYED.

Perfectly good airworthy aircraft are "written off" all the time.
It's an economic decision.
Last year one of the early 777s was dismantled for parts ie "written off"

LH has a few parked MD11s and it wouldn't surprise me if it will be broken up for parts...

Do a google search and you'll see that the MD11 has a high number of landing accidents due to its 50% smaller stab compared to the DC10

They replaced the "missing" damping of the stab with LSAS a fly by wire stability augmentation system for pitch.

Gusty winds or a less than stable final and the LSAS makes for a sporting landing.

So the crew lands hard, taxies to the gate and discovers damage, seems perfectly ok to me.

Better than the EMB and A320 crews that didn't say anything and had the aircraft fly 6 legs before someone noticed the damage...

YMMV

Cheers
George

Knots2you

Good points. The size difference between the DC-10 and the MD11 is off a bit, however. DC-10 stab is a bit over 71 feet, and the MD-11 is a bit over 59 ft. A 12 ft. smaller stab on the Mad Dog, or about 83% of the size of the DC-10. Seems like elevator effectiveness would only be a factor if there was less response in pitch, in an attempt to arrest a rate of descent close to the ground by increasing pitch at the last moment, which, of course, is frowned upon. A fist full of throttles would be needed to stop such a descent, and if needed, a go around to try again. The 908 load, in fact, restricted the ability to pull back at the last minute, to prevent such pitch inputs. Before the 908 load, every landing was a crap shoot. You never really knew what the outcome was going to be. After 908, good landings were the norm. Or maybe by then, we finally figured out how to land he beast.

990Convair

What you all aren't realizing is that while the stab on an 11 is 17% smaller, the jet is 20 feet or so longer. The reason the stab is smaller is the jet is longer. They figured they didn't need the stab as big as a 10's and it saved weight.

I flew both aircraft and I can say that the 11 is MORE sensitive about the pitch axis, hence it can be a handful in crappy weather. Add in the fact it has the highest approach speed of any civilian airliner and you can have your hands full. There is plenty of stab authority in my opinion and it is very mechanical to land. I found I made better landings in the 10 than I did the 11 because you could flare a 10, but the 11 lands like a 727-200. Very flat, barely flare, then release what you flared and it settles right on.

If you want my opinon on FedEx and the problems we've had it's pretty simple. We are the ONLY MD-11 operator in the world to also operate the MD-10. The "duality" is the issue. You could hypothetically spend the entire year operating NOTHING but MD-10's (including your 6 month check), then get launched on an international MD-11 trip, heavy, into weather....and not have touched an 11 in MONTHS. Make no mistake about it, the front end may look the same but these beasts fly TOTALLY differently. The 10 is very forgiving, the 11 isn't. I think there is an F/O issue that is more a result of how we do things here. As an F/O you can RFO all over the world for months at a time, only landing to stay current when you can (or in the sim if you choose). You could also be matched with a high min's Captain and not get landings. You could also get bumped from your trips for IOE and not get landings. You could also be with a stingy Captain and not get landings. You could also be a reserve pilot and not get landings (I had 41 last year and 26 this year). Landings and the MD-10 Duality are the issue. How do you fix it?

I think we need INTERNATIONAL/DOMESTIC bids of 4 to 6 month duration. At the beginning of the bid each pilot rotates through Memphis and gets 20 landings in the MD-11 sim. First guy has a snapshot taken at 1,000 feet and the instructor just slews you back after you call 80 knots. The instructor throws in various winds so you can get the feel again.

With an INTERNATIONAL/DOMESTIC bid you would have folks consistently flying MD-11's and there would begin to be a comfort level with the jet. As it is now, you never know what you will see on the line. I realize that lately flight ops has pulled some 11's into the domestic system, but it's temporary.

Will this happen? NO WAY. The reason FedEx did the MD10 is to extract productivity out of the MD11 pilot group. Furthermore, having us come in for landing practice more or less is an admission that there is a problem with the 11.

The company will just begin staged replacement of the 11 with the 777, eventually purchasing used 777's after a P-F conversion is approved. The 777 is reportedly a super easy jet to fly and especially land, and it's a Boeing. Do that and your problem is solved.

Sorry for the rant, but that's what you get when you mix APC, football, and Merlot!

990Convair

.....duplicate post for some reason.

MaxKts

Merlot maybe?????

bleedairpacks

I hope to Christ this was the Merlot speaking...

$a2b

ptarmigan

Were the crews in the MD-11 accidents we have had flying MD-10s a lot before the accident?

Rock

Who mixes football and Merlot? That's like mixing NASCAR and sherry. Otherwise, great post. I agree completely. As a junior MD-11 F/O with little control over the trips you fly, simply maintaining landing currency is a challenge. One or two landings a month is not sufficient to maintain any kind of proficiency in an aircraft like the MD-11. It is actually surprising to me that our record at FedEx is as good as it is.

MaxKts

NO

(this is just to satisfy the minimum for posting)