IPA Elections
10-11-2009, 04:32 PM
#91
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2005
Position: Leftof longitudinal
Posts: 1,899
2. MOU gave UPS management cost savings that would have been realized by the furlough plus advantage (as was IPA) to show 'great' management accumen dealing with labor. We got saved (temporarily at least) saved jobs=great unity in 2012.
3. IPA was equally viewed by the market as being smart regarding the MOU. Our credibility goes up with the sector analysts as IPA business assesments are not outright ignored like most union pronouncments. This is beneficial in contract talks. (Takes the management propaganda down a peg or two)
4. Good is communicating with the pilot group in extraordinary detail. Bad is being open to only one view or candidate and pushing poor agendas without knowledge. Bad is also the Age 60 debate (it's done), the "who gave more" questions arising out of the MOU, it's divisive and counter to everyones interest, and the immaturity of many who cannot grasp these basic facts.
5. Contract concessions were not explicity made, rather explicitly refuted in the language of the MOU. The fact that UPS has now violated the MOU and our contract is nothing new, and not the reponsibilty of the MOU language. Language is subject to intepretation, unfortunately, we have never done the Meaning and Intent to explicitly include defintions as in Article 2. We should really expand Article 2! It would eliminate alot of grievances. (another thread perhaps <g>
Safe to say, the clear majority of the IPA clearly will not tolerate MOU language or any LOA language that is a concession to our CBA. I agree with the majority in that opinion.
10-11-2009, 04:33 PM
#92
Freightmama!
Joined APC: Dec 2005
Position: 757/767 FO
Posts: 2,880
Shaggy, your responses make people not want to participate. Because you and Freightpupppy come across like you are owned. The facts are we have a seniority based job. The Junior get chopped if the Management wants. And I was Junior forever in the 90's. And if UPS had to furlough, I accepted it and would have moved on until called back. Not whined about it. I knew the rules when I started flying, like everyone. Please show me ONE airline that has changed a Contract to save the bottom guys. It hasn't happen and shouldn't. If one did, management would threaten a furlough all the time for consessions. Hopefully there wont be a furlough, but if there is one. Take it standing, instead of blaming the Union and Senior folks.
Put the crack pipe down Commando
10-11-2009, 04:39 PM
#93
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: Spartan
Posts: 3,652
I don't like this MOU and for the record as a single guy, with a guard back up, and an active security clearance in the DC area(read job availabliity), I probably needed this MOU less than any of my fellow 300-ers. However, I contributed as a union member. This voluntary participation is crap. It should have been all or nothing for ever member. We're a union or we are not. So, if we strike, can I cross the line cause I've got bills to pay and want to save my job? Sounds ok by the attitude of some of the posts on here. And no, for the jackasses who are ready to pipe in...it would never happen by me.
10-11-2009, 04:55 PM
#94
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2008
Posts: 1,235
1. UPS would have furloughed w/o the original MOU. Read all the volume data back to the early 90's, current Worldport capabilities, market changes, aircraft load and transit time capabilities, etc made the business expectation from Wall Street a foregone conclusion, even the MOU detractors here say UPS should have just furloughed. Responsible management required a furlough.
2. MOU gave UPS management cost savings that would have been realized by the furlough plus advantage (as was IPA) to show 'great' management accumen dealing with labor. We got saved (temporarily at least) saved jobs=great unity in 2012.
3. IPA was equally viewed by the market as being smart regarding the MOU. Our credibility goes up with the sector analysts as IPA business assesments are not outright ignored like most union pronouncments. This is beneficial in contract talks. (Takes the management propaganda down a peg or two)
4. Good is communicating with the pilot group in extraordinary detail. Bad is being open to only one view or candidate and pushing poor agendas without knowledge. Bad is also the Age 60 debate (it's done), the "who gave more" questions arising out of the MOU, it's divisive and counter to everyones interest, and the immaturity of many who cannot grasp these basic facts.
5. Contract concessions were not explicity made, rather explicitly refuted in the language of the MOU. The fact that UPS has now violated the MOU and our contract is nothing new, and not the reponsibilty of the MOU language. Language is subject to intepretation, unfortunately, we have never done the Meaning and Intent to explicitly include defintions as in Article 2. We should really expand Article 2! It would eliminate alot of grievances. (another thread perhaps <g>
Safe to say, the clear majority of the IPA clearly will not tolerate MOU language or any LOA language that is a concession to our CBA. I agree with the majority in that opinion.
2. MOU gave UPS management cost savings that would have been realized by the furlough plus advantage (as was IPA) to show 'great' management accumen dealing with labor. We got saved (temporarily at least) saved jobs=great unity in 2012.
3. IPA was equally viewed by the market as being smart regarding the MOU. Our credibility goes up with the sector analysts as IPA business assesments are not outright ignored like most union pronouncments. This is beneficial in contract talks. (Takes the management propaganda down a peg or two)
4. Good is communicating with the pilot group in extraordinary detail. Bad is being open to only one view or candidate and pushing poor agendas without knowledge. Bad is also the Age 60 debate (it's done), the "who gave more" questions arising out of the MOU, it's divisive and counter to everyones interest, and the immaturity of many who cannot grasp these basic facts.
5. Contract concessions were not explicity made, rather explicitly refuted in the language of the MOU. The fact that UPS has now violated the MOU and our contract is nothing new, and not the reponsibilty of the MOU language. Language is subject to intepretation, unfortunately, we have never done the Meaning and Intent to explicitly include defintions as in Article 2. We should really expand Article 2! It would eliminate alot of grievances. (another thread perhaps <g>
Safe to say, the clear majority of the IPA clearly will not tolerate MOU language or any LOA language that is a concession to our CBA. I agree with the majority in that opinion.
10-11-2009, 05:38 PM
#95
Line Holder
Joined APC: Feb 2007
Posts: 65
Slice I agree with you 100% on this point.
Slice I agree with you 100% on this point. There should have been an up/down vote. If the vote failed before a furlough (which it would have) there should have been a second vote after a furlough to help out the guys on the street. The vast majority of IPA pilots would have supported a dues assessment AFTER an actual furlough, but this voluntary MOU giveback is for the birds and has created a huge split in the union. It probably didn't happen this way because Miller was positioning himself to run again and thought this might be a way of buying junior votes, but it turned out not to be enough (just my theory). Now Farley is trying to scoop up the junior votes, but I don't think the majority of the membership will go for it. Think about it, there was no MOU last time there was a furlough threat. 19 guys got actual letters, and UPS cancelled the furlough the Friday before it was supposed to happen.
10-11-2009, 05:55 PM
#96
Line Holder
Joined APC: Dec 2008
Posts: 98
Think about it, there was no MOU last time there was a furlough threat. 19 guys got actual letters, and UPS cancelled the furlough the Friday before it was supposed to happen.[/quote]
CashCow,
Are you refering to the furlough threat after 911? If so are you a believer that UPS didn't furlough because of the OT ban and IPA Unity? Do you believe UPS was not going to furlough if we didn't have this MOU and that it was a bluff?
I ask because I hear this a lot from the senior guys. I also heard the reason UPS didn't furlough was that so many UPS pilots went to the sand box.
I am not implying any sort of agenda just curious of your opinion.
CashCow,
Are you refering to the furlough threat after 911? If so are you a believer that UPS didn't furlough because of the OT ban and IPA Unity? Do you believe UPS was not going to furlough if we didn't have this MOU and that it was a bluff?
I ask because I hear this a lot from the senior guys. I also heard the reason UPS didn't furlough was that so many UPS pilots went to the sand box.
I am not implying any sort of agenda just curious of your opinion.
10-11-2009, 06:13 PM
#97
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2008
Position: MD CA
Posts: 705
"I hope and prey that you too will change your mind and put people lives ahead of your own GREED".
What is your name and phone number? Since u want others to tell you.
But to the point. There is no Greed on my part. I gave to the RDG and am a Junior Capt. Kicked out of Domicle, etc. Took 11 years to upgrade. Not a old senior over 60 fart. I just dont agree and never will to someone suggesting to alter a contract. Ever.
Many have sacrificed huge for our current agreement. And to tell the members to take a hourly pay cut is insane. Or any suggestions to weaken our contract. And in regards to the election, I don't feel Scott is assertive enough. I want a leader who doesn't cow down to UPS. I want a Pit Bull. Nothing less. This meaning and intent two years later, what a joke. Or letting UPS slide on the 8 hour flights. Or the lack of instant trip trading. I can go on. Our EB is a bunch of empty suits in my opinion. Only BT pushes and gets thngs done. And that's how we have to deal with UPS. It's not SWA here. Just like the 767 with no rest area. This is BM sitting on his hands.
What is your name and phone number? Since u want others to tell you.
But to the point. There is no Greed on my part. I gave to the RDG and am a Junior Capt. Kicked out of Domicle, etc. Took 11 years to upgrade. Not a old senior over 60 fart. I just dont agree and never will to someone suggesting to alter a contract. Ever.
Many have sacrificed huge for our current agreement. And to tell the members to take a hourly pay cut is insane. Or any suggestions to weaken our contract. And in regards to the election, I don't feel Scott is assertive enough. I want a leader who doesn't cow down to UPS. I want a Pit Bull. Nothing less. This meaning and intent two years later, what a joke. Or letting UPS slide on the 8 hour flights. Or the lack of instant trip trading. I can go on. Our EB is a bunch of empty suits in my opinion. Only BT pushes and gets thngs done. And that's how we have to deal with UPS. It's not SWA here. Just like the 767 with no rest area. This is BM sitting on his hands.
10-11-2009, 06:13 PM
#98
Banned
Joined APC: Nov 2006
Position: On Food Stamps
Posts: 937
So that I can go to that Cesspool that you call the B&G and read how bad the guys that were hired here in 88-89 had it and still have it? Or is it to see a good and a genuine stand up guy's name be dragged through the mud for $hit he didn't do three years ago based on someone's hidden agenda's. No thanks I let you and your buddies do that!
10-11-2009, 06:24 PM
#99
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2008
Posts: 1,235
So that I can go to that Cesspool that you call the B&G and read how bad the guys that were hired here in 88-89 had it and still have it? Or is it to see a good and a genuine stand up guy's name be dragged through the mud for $hit he didn't do three years ago based on someone's hidden agenda's. No thanks I let you and your buddies do that!
If you are writing about the training topic and SF role that was covered by WL and CP .
10-11-2009, 06:25 PM
#100
Banned
Joined APC: Nov 2006
Position: On Food Stamps
Posts: 937
"I hope and prey that you too will change your mind and put people lives ahead of your own GREED".
What is your name and phone number? Since u want others to tell you.
But to the point. There is no Greed on my part. I gave to the RDG and am a Junior Capt. Kicked out of Domicle, etc. Not a old senior over 60 fart. I just dont agree and never will to someone suggesting to alter a contract. Ever.
Many have sacrificed huge for our current agreement. And to tell the members to take a hourly pay cut is insane. Or any suggestions to weaken our contract. And I don't feel Scott is assertive enough. I want a leader who doesn't cow down to UPS. I want a Pit Bull. Nothing less. This meaning and intent two years later, what a joke. Or letting UPS slide on the 8 hour flights. Or the updated trip trading. I can go on. Our EB is a bunch of empty suits in my opinion. Only BT pushes and gets thngs done. And that's how we have to deal with UPS. It's not SWA here. Just like the 767 with no rest area. This is BM sitting on his hands.
What is your name and phone number? Since u want others to tell you.
But to the point. There is no Greed on my part. I gave to the RDG and am a Junior Capt. Kicked out of Domicle, etc. Not a old senior over 60 fart. I just dont agree and never will to someone suggesting to alter a contract. Ever.
Many have sacrificed huge for our current agreement. And to tell the members to take a hourly pay cut is insane. Or any suggestions to weaken our contract. And I don't feel Scott is assertive enough. I want a leader who doesn't cow down to UPS. I want a Pit Bull. Nothing less. This meaning and intent two years later, what a joke. Or letting UPS slide on the 8 hour flights. Or the updated trip trading. I can go on. Our EB is a bunch of empty suits in my opinion. Only BT pushes and gets thngs done. And that's how we have to deal with UPS. It's not SWA here. Just like the 767 with no rest area. This is BM sitting on his hands.
I am not saying anything about opening up the contract and if that's your take on my position then maybe I haven't portrayed my point clearly enough!
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