boxhauler

I thought the union convinced the company that the acars blockout time should not be changed by ramp tower to reflect their "cleared to push" call. my last flight the acars paperwork showed a diff of 15 min from my trip recap block out time. that's alot of lattes!!

2cylinderdriver

Call Grievance/Contract Admin with the details, please. They need to know about things like this.

Gunter

ACARS is the accepted standard for block out unless it is malfunctioning. It ensures federally mandated limits are not exceeded. For our safety, of course.

Does the FAA know about Ramp tower's shenanigans?

golfandfly

I've also seen this done on many occasions.

FoxHunter

Not sure you want to push that too far! What is the FAA definition of (Block) flight time? I believe you will find it says that it starts from the time the aircraft moves under it's own power to the time it stops moving under it's own power. Neither push back nor tow in are included.

http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text....0.1.1&idno=14

PART 1—DEFINITIONS AND ABBREVIATIONS

Flight time means:

(1) Pilot time that commences when an aircraft moves under its own power for the purpose of flight and ends when the aircraft comes to rest after landing; or

(2) For a glider without self-launch capability, pilot time that commences when the glider is towed for the purpose of flight and ends when the glider comes to rest after landing.

Gunter

Then I guess all the pax guys are doing it wrong.

BrownBusDriver

At UPS is is under own power or tow for the intent of flight. I think this is the standard 121 of Block Time.

I would call the FAA.

BrownBusDriver

CactusCrew

When I was at America West the ACARS captured 5 time events. (Push, Out, Off, On, In)

PAY BLOCK = pushback brake release to arrive on gate brake set.

BLOCK TIME = the 2nd brake release (motors running, doors closed, etc) event until arrive on gate brake set.

FLIGHT TIME = rotation to touchdown.

That was over 3 years ago and prior to the marriage with the East, so take that FWIW.

Also when ACARS was turned on for tracking times, the initial system did not account for that "pay" time duing pushback. As I remember it ALPA was able to prove that past practice had been to pay crewmembers during pushback. So the system was altered to capture those times described above.

What they do now is anyone's guess ...

But I do remember there were only a few times when PUSH time was the same as OUT time. When a ramp parking with airstairs was used instead of a gate with jetbridge. Start-up and taxi without a pushback meant PUSH and OUT were the same time.

BrownBus described the system at UPS.

Just for clarification ... Are you calling for pushback and releasing the brake at 1500z. Ramp responds hold your position for traffic. Then you receive actual pushback clearance at 1515z when the alley clears. So your "ramp operations" goes back and adjusts the aircraft "OUT" time to 1515z ?

In spite of another poster's opinion on the definition of block time. I think it is a definite "grey" area for a company to routinely go in and alter ACARS transmitted block times whenever it wants to. What is their official clock ? Who is observing the aircraft movement ?

Either ACARS is the official timekeeper or it is not. It is typically an FAA aproved system. I don't think you can chose to use it when you want and ignore it when you want ... MEL situations aside.

Todzilla

Until recently the beacon and doors used to block you out. I have noticed in the last few months that the ACARS parameters have changed back to the doors and engine rotation, or push back. Talk to your local MX guy. There is an easy way to change those parameters, if your so inclined. Good luck!

ptarmigan

It seems that most times the ramp tower backs the block time to an earlier time than ACARS, rather than the reverse. They have more of a vested interest in an earlier block out than you do, don't forget!