FDX...Wilson Poll Question
09-07-2009, 07:54 AM
#131
Tri-tanic operator
Joined APC: Jul 2006
Position: Doggie
Posts: 2,382
It is more like 104 x 13 = 1352There's more to it than that, but I chose not to quote the details. It has to do with our 28 day PAY period vs 56 day BID period and then one bid period that is 28 days except every 6 years where it is 35 days ... no $hit. Only at UPS !
I sometimes wish I knew the logic behind this system, then I come to my senses. Cactus had a 28 day pay & bid period system back in the day. At the time it was negotiated as a benefit to work more for more pay ... DUH ! It took awhile, but someone figured out that higher PAY RATES were better than the ability to work more hours.
Our ability to drop trips will likely go away as part of the deal. None of the other airlines with this system allow pilots to simply "drop."
09-07-2009, 07:58 AM
#132
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2006
Position: 767 FO
Posts: 8,047
You are not 180 out from me.
We should let guys, in normal times, fly near as much as they want. To avoid the huge cuts in individual line flying hours during the next downturn we need to let folks fly extra in the good times.
The alternative is to go cap and bank which is otherwise known as the furlough every downturn model. It might not turn out like you hope. Making your high 5 will not work for some. Flying heavy for 8 months and taking it easy in the 4 months of your choosing will no longer be possible. For those who want to take a month off, too bad. Cap and bank also forces you to work every month. You will bump up against some new restrictions and limits. Ones you didn't ask the MEC and NC to add will crop up. You know how deals with the company go.
Our ability to drop trips will likely go away as part of the deal. None of the other airlines with this system allow pilots to simply "drop."
Once we open up this door it will get ugly, IMHO. Unintended consequences WILL occur. Do you think the company will give away carryover without something juicy in return?
We should let guys, in normal times, fly near as much as they want. To avoid the huge cuts in individual line flying hours during the next downturn we need to let folks fly extra in the good times.
The alternative is to go cap and bank which is otherwise known as the furlough every downturn model. It might not turn out like you hope. Making your high 5 will not work for some. Flying heavy for 8 months and taking it easy in the 4 months of your choosing will no longer be possible. For those who want to take a month off, too bad. Cap and bank also forces you to work every month. You will bump up against some new restrictions and limits. Ones you didn't ask the MEC and NC to add will crop up. You know how deals with the company go.
Our ability to drop trips will likely go away as part of the deal. None of the other airlines with this system allow pilots to simply "drop."
Once we open up this door it will get ugly, IMHO. Unintended consequences WILL occur. Do you think the company will give away carryover without something juicy in return?
But again, you guys aren't against extra flying fine. How are you at encouraging extra flying?
09-07-2009, 08:07 AM
#133
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2006
Posts: 3,931
If you want to fly minimally the last 4 months of the year, your plan does not work.
Are you assuming someone is a widebody CA during their high 5 years? Why?
Won't be like that in the future for all. Many get hired older and upgrade times are sliding to the right fast.
Are you assuming someone is a widebody CA during their high 5 years? Why?
Won't be like that in the future for all. Many get hired older and upgrade times are sliding to the right fast.
09-07-2009, 08:23 AM
#134
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2006
Posts: 2,889
Albie, nice thesis. IMO it is a Red Herring to compare the cap and bank to guys on the street. You ignore the impact on competition and the fact that a passenger carrier that isn't named SW doesn't make a profit.
And I think a lot of people ignore the fact that many companies that do not make a profit restrict the amount of work their pilots can do. I see a correlation. I forgot to add JetBlue does not cap a pilots hours...
You also lose me when you start saying C/O is a drag but then go into a speil on cap and bank. Although they create similar problems the two issues are not the same. Carryover encourages flying way beyond your BLG and is a way to cheat seniority. If I want to sit reserve in November I will bid C/O in October so I can start November with some leveling. That puts me behind all the guys senior to me sitting reserve.
If you don't want carryover, don't bid it. If you get a c/o trip, drop it when open time shows up. As for "cheating seniority", at what point does seniority trump initiative? Its not a purely academic question, as some want to be able to use seniority to have access to open time. (I'm not in that camp...) Another way to look at using carryover reserve is that if you are willing to work more (more R days) you get an advantage. Seems like in life, that rule pretty much holds true in most endevours. Again, in an extreme, someone senior to you could walk up to you at the trip folder and take your trip if they were senior to you. Another pilot could snag your summer vacation and give you his week in February. In our system, seniority gives you a head start--you can can the line, vacation, and recurrent training you want. But there is point on the timeline that we say "okay...it is SET" and you deal with what your seniority got you. After that, life intervenes and it becomes up to your working the system and ability to work open time, trade with other pilots, etc to build the line or days off you want. Again--maybe I'm an idiot, but I think they system we have has worked remarkably well for a long time. The current shortage of trips in open time has frustrated many, myself included, but I don't want to go and turn the whole apple cart upside down because of a 24-36 month downturn.
Likewise CIC allows me to cherry pick the good trips out of the pool. While seniority does come into play when the trips are assigned, it is not first hired gets first choice; it is first hired with C/O gets first choice. You have to fly extra in order to take advantage of the good deal.
True...but CIC requests are processed in seniority order. And...don't you think it sort of makes sense the company might want to reward the pilots who work more rather than less? Remember--you do not have to bid carryover...its a free choice. And if you get CIC you don't have to pick anything up if you want your time off.
In short. You make fine argument against a cap and bank. But you make no argument against restricting C/O. If a guys wants to fly extra; no problem (non 4A2b) but lets not make it too easy on him by keeping C/O as it is currently used.
Thanks for the compliment. But how is it different? If an MD11 guy has a 50 hour carryover from a long international line, whether it was on his line or he picked it up he's still working 50 more hours. I'm not sure I follow where its okay to work more hours but you can't bid for it. C/O has largely gone away on most lines except those international SIBA and MD11 trips anyway. I agree that looking at bid start date and some other tools might be a way to create MORE regular lines andz fewer c/o lines.
Heck put all them CIC trips into open time and then we can all have a shot a flying extra.
If you have a good bot program...otherwise I have quit wasting my time on Thursday night
. Another issue we need to address...
You may be OK with extra flying; my question is: Are you OK with encouraging extra flying? P.S. As I have been excessed back into your block, this is a serious block rep question. Maybe a good question for your lunch this week.
If I encourage you to work extra, some would object. If I tell you to work less, it could be considered an illegal work action. My honest answer is that if it isn't a DP, I could care less what you fly. What I want to do is preserve your contractual right to fly MORE or LESS without any interference or limitations imposed (during normal non-4a2b ops).
And I'll be glad to answer your questions, but really we are there to LISTEN and LEARN, not spin you on what I think. You have to realize that a lot of guys I like and respect have very different views on these subjects than I do, and I am not trying to dictate terms the the crew force here. I just think that sometimes guys and gals miss some of the good parts of our current system when they don't get what they want. Everyone needs to be careful for what they wish for, because the thing I love best about working here is flexibilty, and a lot of ideas I read on these boards will eliminate some of that.
What L&L is about is learning what you think we need, what we could do better, and provide better ways to serve you. I hope you'll be there, and I look forward to listening...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
And I think a lot of people ignore the fact that many companies that do not make a profit restrict the amount of work their pilots can do. I see a correlation. I forgot to add JetBlue does not cap a pilots hours...
You also lose me when you start saying C/O is a drag but then go into a speil on cap and bank. Although they create similar problems the two issues are not the same. Carryover encourages flying way beyond your BLG and is a way to cheat seniority. If I want to sit reserve in November I will bid C/O in October so I can start November with some leveling. That puts me behind all the guys senior to me sitting reserve.
If you don't want carryover, don't bid it. If you get a c/o trip, drop it when open time shows up. As for "cheating seniority", at what point does seniority trump initiative? Its not a purely academic question, as some want to be able to use seniority to have access to open time. (I'm not in that camp...) Another way to look at using carryover reserve is that if you are willing to work more (more R days) you get an advantage. Seems like in life, that rule pretty much holds true in most endevours. Again, in an extreme, someone senior to you could walk up to you at the trip folder and take your trip if they were senior to you. Another pilot could snag your summer vacation and give you his week in February. In our system, seniority gives you a head start--you can can the line, vacation, and recurrent training you want. But there is point on the timeline that we say "okay...it is SET" and you deal with what your seniority got you. After that, life intervenes and it becomes up to your working the system and ability to work open time, trade with other pilots, etc to build the line or days off you want. Again--maybe I'm an idiot, but I think they system we have has worked remarkably well for a long time. The current shortage of trips in open time has frustrated many, myself included, but I don't want to go and turn the whole apple cart upside down because of a 24-36 month downturn.
Likewise CIC allows me to cherry pick the good trips out of the pool. While seniority does come into play when the trips are assigned, it is not first hired gets first choice; it is first hired with C/O gets first choice. You have to fly extra in order to take advantage of the good deal.
True...but CIC requests are processed in seniority order. And...don't you think it sort of makes sense the company might want to reward the pilots who work more rather than less? Remember--you do not have to bid carryover...its a free choice. And if you get CIC you don't have to pick anything up if you want your time off.
In short. You make fine argument against a cap and bank. But you make no argument against restricting C/O. If a guys wants to fly extra; no problem (non 4A2b) but lets not make it too easy on him by keeping C/O as it is currently used.
Thanks for the compliment. But how is it different? If an MD11 guy has a 50 hour carryover from a long international line, whether it was on his line or he picked it up he's still working 50 more hours. I'm not sure I follow where its okay to work more hours but you can't bid for it. C/O has largely gone away on most lines except those international SIBA and MD11 trips anyway. I agree that looking at bid start date and some other tools might be a way to create MORE regular lines andz fewer c/o lines.
Heck put all them CIC trips into open time and then we can all have a shot a flying extra.
If you have a good bot program...otherwise I have quit wasting my time on Thursday night
. Another issue we need to address...You may be OK with extra flying; my question is: Are you OK with encouraging extra flying? P.S. As I have been excessed back into your block, this is a serious block rep question. Maybe a good question for your lunch this week.
If I encourage you to work extra, some would object. If I tell you to work less, it could be considered an illegal work action. My honest answer is that if it isn't a DP, I could care less what you fly. What I want to do is preserve your contractual right to fly MORE or LESS without any interference or limitations imposed (during normal non-4a2b ops).
And I'll be glad to answer your questions, but really we are there to LISTEN and LEARN, not spin you on what I think. You have to realize that a lot of guys I like and respect have very different views on these subjects than I do, and I am not trying to dictate terms the the crew force here. I just think that sometimes guys and gals miss some of the good parts of our current system when they don't get what they want. Everyone needs to be careful for what they wish for, because the thing I love best about working here is flexibilty, and a lot of ideas I read on these boards will eliminate some of that.
What L&L is about is learning what you think we need, what we could do better, and provide better ways to serve you. I hope you'll be there, and I look forward to listening...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
09-07-2009, 08:39 AM
#136
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2005
Position: 757 Capt
Posts: 2,419
Busboy,
you are mixing apples with oranges.
Overtime pay kicks in for non-exempt employees in a different labor pool. Not every worker in the US is covered by uniform labor laws. Different pools=different rules.
you are mixing apples with oranges.
Overtime pay kicks in for non-exempt employees in a different labor pool. Not every worker in the US is covered by uniform labor laws. Different pools=different rules.
09-07-2009, 08:53 AM
#137
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,068
Albie, nice thesis. IMO it is a Red Herring to compare the cap and bank to guys on the street. You ignore the impact on competition and the fact that a passenger carrier that isn't named SW doesn't make a profit.
09-07-2009, 08:58 AM
#138
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2006
Position: leaning to the left
Posts: 4,184
I find it interesting that one of our union leaders would be advocating the flying of unlimited overtime at straight pay...while dissing the airlines that allow overtime flying only at time and a half.
Talk about mixing apples and oranges...Insinuating that the airlines that are not making money, is somehow caused by their pilots contracts having a cap? YGTSM!!!
And on the same subject...I think we all need to stop thinking that we should need to fly overtime to reach our "high 5". We should be of a mindset that you can reach that, flying your normal line at the highest pay scale we have. Like the A-380.
Oh yah...and the part about the pie being shared by 4500, rather than 5500...If our slice of the pie was being shared equally amongst the current 4500 pilots, that would make sense. But, it's not shared evenly. Those protecting their enormous carryover and picking up trips, are enjoying a much larger chunk of that slice. That's part of the problem.
If we had a monthly BLG cap with unlimited overtime(DRF/VLT), there would most likely very seldom be a draft call for those living in domicile. All of the open trips would be picked up by volunteer. It would actually increase the odds of a commuter getting their greedy little hands on some draft-type pay.
Last edited by Busboy; 09-07-2009 at 09:21 AM.
09-07-2009, 09:10 AM
#139
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2006
Position: 767 FO
Posts: 8,047
It is a red herring LAG, but it's of the type that has always been popular in 'pilot logic'. There are/have been tons of things that we do around here operationally that are different from what other carriers do. Anytime someone asks about it, the answer often given is 'well that's why carrier XXX is out of business or in trouble,' even when it's clear that there isn't a correlation.
You mean like if we have cap and bank we lose the ability to drop trips?
I think if we go to a cap and bank we will lose scooby snacks because none of the other carriers that have a cap and bank have scooby snacks.
09-07-2009, 09:31 AM
#140
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2006
Position: 767 FO
Posts: 8,047
And I think a lot of people ignore the fact that many companies that do not make a profit restrict the amount of work their pilots can do. I see a correlation. I forgot to add JetBlue does not cap a pilots hours...
Correlation does not prove causation. If we cap hours during 4A2b and start losing money does that mean the cap caused it or losing money caused 4A2b. (I know we are not losing money).
If you don't want carryover, don't bid it. If you get a c/o trip, drop it when open time shows up. As for "cheating seniority", at what point does seniority trump initiative? Its not a purely academic question, as some want to be able to use seniority to have access to open time. (I'm not in that camp...) Another way to look at using carryover reserve is that if you are willing to work more (more R days) you get an advantage. Seems like in life, that rule pretty much holds true in most endevours. Again, in an extreme, someone senior to you could walk up to you at the trip folder and take your trip if they were senior to you. Another pilot could snag your summer vacation and give you his week in February. In our system, seniority gives you a head start--you can can the line, vacation, and recurrent training you want. But there is point on the timeline that we say "okay...it is SET" and you deal with what your seniority got you. After that, life intervenes and it becomes up to your working the system and ability to work open time, trade with other pilots, etc to build the line or days off you want. Again--maybe I'm an idiot, but I think they system we have has worked remarkably well for a long time. The current shortage of trips in open time has frustrated many, myself included, but I don't want to go and turn the whole apple cart upside down because of a 24-36 month downturn.
Nice life lesson and I agree hard work breeds success. We can talk about Obama care another time. But that does not mean that we should make it easier for guys to work 50%, 80%, or 100% more than everyone else. That is my point with the carryover rules it makes it easier to fly well over BLG not harder. You call it working more R days. I see it as not working the first half of the R days in your month and shifting the load to guys behind you on the leveling list. Want to work more great, work more but don't shift your reserve trips onto me.
True...but CIC requests are processed in seniority order. And...don't you think it sort of makes sense the company might want to reward the pilots who work more rather than less? Remember--you do not have to bid carryover...its a free choice. And if you get CIC you don't have to pick anything up if you want your time off.
You bet they would. I would bet the company would much rather 2000 pilots flying 120 hours a month than 4000 flying 60. Should we help them?
Thanks for the compliment. But how is it different? If an MD11 guy has a 50 hour carryover from a long international line, whether it was on his line or he picked it up he's still working 50 more hours. I'm not sure I follow where its okay to work more hours but you can't bid for it. C/O has largely gone away on most lines except those international SIBA and MD11 trips anyway. I agree that looking at bid start date and some other tools might be a way to create MORE regular lines andz fewer c/o lines.
Because the company purposely builds these lines to encourage overflying at straight pay. You see nothing wrong with helping the company do it. I do.
If you have a good bot program...otherwise I have quit wasting my time on Thursday night. Another issue we need to address...
Why do you think there is no open time on thursday night? Hint look at open time before the CIC is assigned.
If I encourage you to work extra, some would object. If I tell you to work less, it could be considered an illegal work action. My honest answer is that if it isn't a DP, I could care less what you fly. What I want to do is preserve your contractual right to fly MORE or LESS without any interference or limitations imposed (during normal non-4a2b ops).
And I'll be glad to answer your questions, but really we are there to LISTEN and LEARN, not spin you on what I think. You have to realize that a lot of guys I like and respect have very different views on these subjects than I do, and I am not trying to dictate terms the the crew force here. I just think that sometimes guys and gals miss some of the good parts of our current system when they don't get what they want. Everyone needs to be careful for what they wish for, because the thing I love best about working here is flexibilty, and a lot of ideas I read on these boards will eliminate some of that.
What L&L is about is learning what you think we need, what we could do better, and provide better ways to serve you. I hope you'll be there, and I look forward to listening...
Terrific, I did not volunteer for your lunch because I will be on a great trip I picked up with CIC. How is asking a question on cap and bank spinning?
Correlation does not prove causation. If we cap hours during 4A2b and start losing money does that mean the cap caused it or losing money caused 4A2b. (I know we are not losing money).
If you don't want carryover, don't bid it. If you get a c/o trip, drop it when open time shows up. As for "cheating seniority", at what point does seniority trump initiative? Its not a purely academic question, as some want to be able to use seniority to have access to open time. (I'm not in that camp...) Another way to look at using carryover reserve is that if you are willing to work more (more R days) you get an advantage. Seems like in life, that rule pretty much holds true in most endevours. Again, in an extreme, someone senior to you could walk up to you at the trip folder and take your trip if they were senior to you. Another pilot could snag your summer vacation and give you his week in February. In our system, seniority gives you a head start--you can can the line, vacation, and recurrent training you want. But there is point on the timeline that we say "okay...it is SET" and you deal with what your seniority got you. After that, life intervenes and it becomes up to your working the system and ability to work open time, trade with other pilots, etc to build the line or days off you want. Again--maybe I'm an idiot, but I think they system we have has worked remarkably well for a long time. The current shortage of trips in open time has frustrated many, myself included, but I don't want to go and turn the whole apple cart upside down because of a 24-36 month downturn.
Nice life lesson and I agree hard work breeds success. We can talk about Obama care another time. But that does not mean that we should make it easier for guys to work 50%, 80%, or 100% more than everyone else. That is my point with the carryover rules it makes it easier to fly well over BLG not harder. You call it working more R days. I see it as not working the first half of the R days in your month and shifting the load to guys behind you on the leveling list. Want to work more great, work more but don't shift your reserve trips onto me.
True...but CIC requests are processed in seniority order. And...don't you think it sort of makes sense the company might want to reward the pilots who work more rather than less? Remember--you do not have to bid carryover...its a free choice. And if you get CIC you don't have to pick anything up if you want your time off.
You bet they would. I would bet the company would much rather 2000 pilots flying 120 hours a month than 4000 flying 60. Should we help them?
Thanks for the compliment. But how is it different? If an MD11 guy has a 50 hour carryover from a long international line, whether it was on his line or he picked it up he's still working 50 more hours. I'm not sure I follow where its okay to work more hours but you can't bid for it. C/O has largely gone away on most lines except those international SIBA and MD11 trips anyway. I agree that looking at bid start date and some other tools might be a way to create MORE regular lines andz fewer c/o lines.
Because the company purposely builds these lines to encourage overflying at straight pay. You see nothing wrong with helping the company do it. I do.
If you have a good bot program...otherwise I have quit wasting my time on Thursday night
. Another issue we need to address...Why do you think there is no open time on thursday night? Hint look at open time before the CIC is assigned.
If I encourage you to work extra, some would object. If I tell you to work less, it could be considered an illegal work action. My honest answer is that if it isn't a DP, I could care less what you fly. What I want to do is preserve your contractual right to fly MORE or LESS without any interference or limitations imposed (during normal non-4a2b ops).
And I'll be glad to answer your questions, but really we are there to LISTEN and LEARN, not spin you on what I think. You have to realize that a lot of guys I like and respect have very different views on these subjects than I do, and I am not trying to dictate terms the the crew force here. I just think that sometimes guys and gals miss some of the good parts of our current system when they don't get what they want. Everyone needs to be careful for what they wish for, because the thing I love best about working here is flexibilty, and a lot of ideas I read on these boards will eliminate some of that.
What L&L is about is learning what you think we need, what we could do better, and provide better ways to serve you. I hope you'll be there, and I look forward to listening...
Terrific, I did not volunteer for your lunch because I will be on a great trip I picked up with CIC. How is asking a question on cap and bank spinning?
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