New Rumor From Good Source Another Excess
08-12-2009, 07:05 PM
#61
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2006
Position: MD11 FO
Posts: 1,124
Sorry, I'm a bit late to the discussion, but ..
Domestically it is not the 30 in 7 that will cause major changes to our schedule, but the 8 in 24 rule. Currently, under supplemental rules, we can fly more than 8 in 24 as long as there is an intervening legal rest period. (See Part 121. 505) Many of our flights, domestically, use this ability to exceed 8 in 24. Under Flag Operations, you can only fly 8 in 24, period, intervening rest period or not.
The Flag change will impact quite a few of our trips domestically and how they are built, all to our benefit. Perhaps not surprisingly, when I asked the Flt Ops rep at my last training class about this, they were unaware there were different rules and hadn't looked at how it would impact our schedule at all. I personally think it will be fairly significant, especially on the west coast trips and multi-leg trips the optimizer so loves.
Domestically it is not the 30 in 7 that will cause major changes to our schedule, but the 8 in 24 rule. Currently, under supplemental rules, we can fly more than 8 in 24 as long as there is an intervening legal rest period. (See Part 121. 505) Many of our flights, domestically, use this ability to exceed 8 in 24. Under Flag Operations, you can only fly 8 in 24, period, intervening rest period or not.
The Flag change will impact quite a few of our trips domestically and how they are built, all to our benefit. Perhaps not surprisingly, when I asked the Flt Ops rep at my last training class about this, they were unaware there were different rules and hadn't looked at how it would impact our schedule at all. I personally think it will be fairly significant, especially on the west coast trips and multi-leg trips the optimizer so loves.
In addition, flag ops block limits 121.481 FAR Part § 121.481: Flight time limitations: One or two pilot crews -- FAA FARS, 14 CFR have very similar rest requirements for pilots that exceed 8 in 24 - it is clearly allowed.
The comments on the manning changes to Flag Ops didn't come from me - they came from JG and the rest of the NC at an LEC meeting and they sounded like they had done their homework.
08-12-2009, 08:20 PM
#62
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2006
Position: leaning to the left
Posts: 4,184
Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought the 8 in 24 problems were rather recent - we don't have a history of them here at Fedex. Company just started doing it in the last few months and supposedly they are all fixed in the Sep bidpacks (there were still a few in August but most were fixed). They really don't work for line building except under 4a2b where you don't have as much concern about min days off. If there's a history of 8 in 24 flights then please elaborate.
In addition, flag ops block limits 121.481 FAR Part § 121.481: Flight time limitations: One or two pilot crews -- FAA FARS, 14 CFR have very similar rest requirements for pilots that exceed 8 in 24 - it is clearly allowed.
The comments on the manning changes to Flag Ops didn't come from me - they came from JG and the rest of the NC at an LEC meeting and they sounded like they had done their homework.
In addition, flag ops block limits 121.481 FAR Part § 121.481: Flight time limitations: One or two pilot crews -- FAA FARS, 14 CFR have very similar rest requirements for pilots that exceed 8 in 24 - it is clearly allowed.
The comments on the manning changes to Flag Ops didn't come from me - they came from JG and the rest of the NC at an LEC meeting and they sounded like they had done their homework.
They have also built pairings that planned on exceeding 8 in 24. However, they were built with the required rest period on a layover, not on your own time. So, there was not quite the uproar over it. You'd have to look at the longer pairings through OAK and LAX from, or to, the Midwest/East coast.
08-20-2009, 10:47 AM
#63
Line Holder
Joined APC: Jan 2009
Position: MD-11 Capt
Posts: 68
"121.505 Flight time limitations: Two pilot crews: airplanes.
(a) If a certificate holder conduction supplemental operations schedules a pilot to fly more than eight hours during any 24 consecutive hours, it shall gime him an intervening rest period at or before the end of eight scheduled hours of flight duty. .... (Edited for brevity)
As can be see, subpart (a) allows the company to schedule a pilot for mare than eight hours with a rest period of a certain minimum duration in the mix. This commonly referred to as 'doubling out'." From Safe Skies Fall 2007
We've been doing this for a long time. Anytime you went on a West Coast trip with less than 24 hrs layover this was probably a factor. Any 3 leg trips to a hub turn? Definitely a factor. As long as you had at least 8 hours off before going over 8, you were legal, under supplemental rules only. Look at any MD or Bus schedule, you'll find numerous examples. We're just used to them.
08-20-2009, 12:15 PM
#64
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2006
Position: MD11 FO
Posts: 1,124
Well, if by recent you mean in the last 13 years or so then yes. We've been doing this for a long time. "Safe Skies" Fall 2007 has an article discussing 8 in 24 that outlines how the Company can legally schedule you to exceed 8 hours in a 24 hour period.
"121.505 Flight time limitations: Two pilot crews: airplanes.
(a) If a certificate holder conduction supplemental operations schedules a pilot to fly more than eight hours during any 24 consecutive hours, it shall gime him an intervening rest period at or before the end of eight scheduled hours of flight duty. .... (Edited for brevity)
As can be see, subpart (a) allows the company to schedule a pilot for mare than eight hours with a rest period of a certain minimum duration in the mix. This commonly referred to as 'doubling out'." From Safe Skies Fall 2007
We've been doing this for a long time. Anytime you went on a West Coast trip with less than 24 hrs layover this was probably a factor. Any 3 leg trips to a hub turn? Definitely a factor. As long as you had at least 8 hours off before going over 8, you were legal, under supplemental rules only. Look at any MD or Bus schedule, you'll find numerous examples. We're just used to them.
"121.505 Flight time limitations: Two pilot crews: airplanes.
(a) If a certificate holder conduction supplemental operations schedules a pilot to fly more than eight hours during any 24 consecutive hours, it shall gime him an intervening rest period at or before the end of eight scheduled hours of flight duty. .... (Edited for brevity)
As can be see, subpart (a) allows the company to schedule a pilot for mare than eight hours with a rest period of a certain minimum duration in the mix. This commonly referred to as 'doubling out'." From Safe Skies Fall 2007
We've been doing this for a long time. Anytime you went on a West Coast trip with less than 24 hrs layover this was probably a factor. Any 3 leg trips to a hub turn? Definitely a factor. As long as you had at least 8 hours off before going over 8, you were legal, under supplemental rules only. Look at any MD or Bus schedule, you'll find numerous examples. We're just used to them.
Like I said - show me the pairings from say a year ago that have a scheduled 8 in 24 with the rest on your time - I don't believe they exist.
Furthermore, as mentioned and referenced from what I can tell the rules don't really change for supplemental to flag - flag can also go over 8 in 24 they just need similar (same? I don't remember) rest requirements following it.
08-20-2009, 12:23 PM
#65
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2006
Position: MD11 FO
Posts: 1,124
"121.505 Flight time limitations: Two pilot crews: airplanes.
(a) If a certificate holder conduction supplemental operations schedules a pilot to fly more than eight hours during any 24 consecutive hours, it shall gime him an intervening rest period at or before the end of eight scheduled hours of flight duty. .... (Edited for brevity)
As can be see, subpart (a) allows the company to schedule a pilot for mare than eight hours with a rest period of a certain minimum duration in the mix. This commonly referred to as 'doubling out'." From Safe Skies Fall 2007
(a) If a certificate holder conduction supplemental operations schedules a pilot to fly more than eight hours during any 24 consecutive hours, it shall gime him an intervening rest period at or before the end of eight scheduled hours of flight duty. .... (Edited for brevity)
As can be see, subpart (a) allows the company to schedule a pilot for mare than eight hours with a rest period of a certain minimum duration in the mix. This commonly referred to as 'doubling out'." From Safe Skies Fall 2007
(b) If a certificate holder conducting flag operations schedules a pilot to fly more than eight hours during any 24 consecutive hours, it shall give him an intervening rest period, at or before the end of eight scheduled hours of flight duty. This rest period must be at least twice the number of hours flown since the preceding rest period, but not less than eight hours. The certificate holder shall relieve that pilot of all duty with it during that rest period.
(c) Each pilot who has flown more than eight hours during 24 consecutive hours must be given at least 18 hours of rest before being assigned to any duty with the certificate holder.
Section (c) adds in a mandatory 18 hours rest but in all reality this won't change system form much differently than the supplemental rules. Is this not correct? Specifically you said that Flag ops CANNOT schedule 8 in 24 - am I reading the FAR here incorrectly because it seems to say Flag ops can.
08-21-2009, 12:21 PM
#66
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2006
Position: B777 FO FDX, C130 ANG
Posts: 538
Yes you can fly more than 8 in 24 under Flag rules. For example you fly 8 hours then have 9 hours rest = 17 hours during the day, then you fly another 5 hours now you are at 22 hours for the day with 13 hours of flight time.
What you aren't suppose to do is fly more than 8 hours between rest periods with a 2 pilot crew.
What you aren't suppose to do is fly more than 8 hours between rest periods with a 2 pilot crew.
08-21-2009, 12:36 PM
#67
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2007
Position: 777 Multi-tasker
Posts: 712
Yes you can fly more than 8 in 24 under Flag rules. For example you fly 8 hours then have 9 hours rest = 17 hours during the day, then you fly another 5 hours now you are at 22 hours for the day with 13 hours of flight time.
What you aren't suppose to do is fly more than 8 hours between rest periods with a 2 pilot crew.
What you aren't suppose to do is fly more than 8 hours between rest periods with a 2 pilot crew.
08-21-2009, 01:29 PM
#68
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2006
Position: leaning to the left
Posts: 4,184
Yes you can fly more than 8 in 24 under Flag rules. For example you fly 8 hours then have 9 hours rest = 17 hours during the day, then you fly another 5 hours now you are at 22 hours for the day with 13 hours of flight time.
What you aren't suppose to do is fly more than 8 hours between rest periods with a 2 pilot crew.
What you aren't suppose to do is fly more than 8 hours between rest periods with a 2 pilot crew.
08-21-2009, 06:04 PM
#69
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2006
Position: B777 Captain
Posts: 566
Sorry, I'm a bit late to the discussion, but ..
Domestically it is not the 30 in 7 that will cause major changes to our schedule, but the 8 in 24 rule. Currently, under supplemental rules, we can fly more than 8 in 24 as long as there is an intervening legal rest period. (See Part 121. 505) Many of our flights, domestically, use this ability to exceed 8 in 24. Under Flag Operations, you can only fly 8 in 24, period, intervening rest period or not.
The Flag change will impact quite a few of our trips domestically and how they are built, all to our benefit. Perhaps not surprisingly, when I asked the Flt Ops rep at my last training class about this, they were unaware there were different rules and hadn't looked at how it would impact our schedule at all. I personally think it will be fairly significant, especially on the west coast trips and multi-leg trips the optimizer so loves.
Domestically it is not the 30 in 7 that will cause major changes to our schedule, but the 8 in 24 rule. Currently, under supplemental rules, we can fly more than 8 in 24 as long as there is an intervening legal rest period. (See Part 121. 505) Many of our flights, domestically, use this ability to exceed 8 in 24. Under Flag Operations, you can only fly 8 in 24, period, intervening rest period or not.
The Flag change will impact quite a few of our trips domestically and how they are built, all to our benefit. Perhaps not surprisingly, when I asked the Flt Ops rep at my last training class about this, they were unaware there were different rules and hadn't looked at how it would impact our schedule at all. I personally think it will be fairly significant, especially on the west coast trips and multi-leg trips the optimizer so loves.
There is no 8 hour limit for Domestic at all, just a max of 8 hours between required rest periods.
Don't confuse that to mean that you can't fly more than 8 hours in a 24 hour period. What rule do you think limits you to 8/24 in either flag or domestic, please cite it?
Flag rules will impact ZERO trips Domestically.
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