Youngest captain at FedEx & UPS?
06-19-2009, 03:08 AM
#61
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2006
Position: FO - 757/767
Posts: 1,228
I did pay my dues too; I flew saabs at eagle for almost 8 years, before being hired at brown(no, i'm not gonna reveal my DOH
). But I still feel that, being a woman, I was a "shoe in" during the interview. There were plenty of men who were more qualified than me, who did not get hired(plus I only had ONE internal rec).
On a side note, I agree with the affirmative action note: it's racism, sexism etc and organizations like WIA(women in aviation) should be ceased. It favors one sex over the other, something that I believe is wrong.
). But I still feel that, being a woman, I was a "shoe in" during the interview. There were plenty of men who were more qualified than me, who did not get hired(plus I only had ONE internal rec).On a side note, I agree with the affirmative action note: it's racism, sexism etc and organizations like WIA(women in aviation) should be ceased. It favors one sex over the other, something that I believe is wrong.
06-19-2009, 03:13 AM
#62
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2006
Position: FO - 757/767
Posts: 1,228
As a male, I had many aviators I looked up to and enjoyed reading their stories when I was a kid. One of them was Jackie Cochran. Jacqueline "Jackie" Cochran
She was a superb aviator, real gentlewoman IMO. Have flown/instructed civilian/military with lots of women, cut them nothing different than anyone else. Aviation is actually one equalized profession/hobby that for the most part is blind to anything other than skill. If you are incompetent, most will not survive (again, regardless of sex). A few do, but have met more males who were incompetent than female, but believe that is because there are more males, so percentage wise assume same rate in my anecdotal observation.
In any case, women generally have an advantage on being considered for an interview assuming all other things equal because there are fewer women in this profession. Just a fact of life, but the variation from the base requirements required is certainly smaller than it once was. Also, believe few are hired/retained unless they have the skillset to match the resume since numbers flying are improving.
She was a superb aviator, real gentlewoman IMO. Have flown/instructed civilian/military with lots of women, cut them nothing different than anyone else. Aviation is actually one equalized profession/hobby that for the most part is blind to anything other than skill. If you are incompetent, most will not survive (again, regardless of sex). A few do, but have met more males who were incompetent than female, but believe that is because there are more males, so percentage wise assume same rate in my anecdotal observation.
In any case, women generally have an advantage on being considered for an interview assuming all other things equal because there are fewer women in this profession. Just a fact of life, but the variation from the base requirements required is certainly smaller than it once was. Also, believe few are hired/retained unless they have the skillset to match the resume since numbers flying are improving.
06-19-2009, 05:27 AM
#63
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2006
Position: Student Pilot
Posts: 849
hotmamapilot, how come you discount yourself like that? how do you know that you were not a shoo-in due to your fantastic personality or who knows what else recruiters look for? on paper, any military guy or someone with extensive intl/widebody/etc. would be more "qualified" than someone who doesnt have the above experience. and I'm not a recruiter but this is obviously not the only thing they look at... besides, 8 years of flying saabs is obviously not the same as f-16 or c-17, but it's still 8 years of flying 121. flipping through the past 10 pages or so it seems like numerous other guys got in with just part 135 turboprop time (or something else that isnt military) and one rec too, and you dont hear them saying i was just a shoo-in. I dunno, you may well have been a shoo-in, but unless the interviewer told me directly that that had been the case, I just wouldn't assume that about myself esp since it's not like you got hired with 500 hrs.
difference between men and women, i guess.
06-19-2009, 04:58 PM
#65
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2006
Posts: 3,333
However, it's such a shame that today we are one of very few countries in the world where revenge-discrimination is part of our law…
That's what I'm against, the government getting involved in the hiring programs of private and public businesses... I do believe that racism, sexism, discrimination, etc. to a certain degree still exist but I don't think discriminating in the opposite direction solves the problem...
Last edited by ⌐ AV8OR WANNABE; 06-19-2009 at 05:30 PM.
06-19-2009, 05:28 PM
#66
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2006
Posts: 3,333
I split up your post to make more sense of my reply…
I don't know when you recruited, and I don't doubt this, however I don't think that this would necessarily be the case across every regional in the recent years.
All within the last 10 years and I agree with you that it doesn’t always happen… My point is legalized discrimination is wrong whether we see it every day or only every now and then…
When I was hired, a lot of the regionals were hiring just about everyone, period. and like saltydog mentioned, the number of us have steadily increased through the recent years and while we're still in the minority there are a lot more women in the regionals... meaning I'm not *special* anymore!
Yes you are, the affirmative action says so and that’s why it’s wrong… You’re probably a great pilot but you should reach your goals like everyone else and not have to wonder if you got the job because you’re an innie or an outie… or white, black, hispanic, etc... Should not matter... (they’ll never admit it to you by the way). We shouldn't even have to include our race/gender information on our applications...
hotmamapilot, how come you discount yourself like that? how do you know that you were not a shoo-in due to your fantastic personality or who knows what else recruiters look for? on paper, any military guy or someone with extensive intl/widebody/etc. would be more "qualified" than someone who doesnt have the above experience. and I'm not a recruiter but this is obviously not the only thing they look at... besides, 8 years of flying saabs is obviously not the same as f-16 or c-17, but it's still 8 years of flying 121. flipping through the past 10 pages or so it seems like numerous other guys got in with just part 135 turboprop time (or something else that isnt military) and one rec too, and you dont hear them saying i was just a shoo-in. I dunno, you may well have been a shoo-in, but unless the interviewer told me directly that that had been the case, I just wouldn't assume that about myself esp since it's not like you got hired with 500 hrs.
I don’t think she’s discounting herself, I think she’s being realistic… You have an idealistic view of this profession but once hiring resumes again soon enough you’ll realize that some people have better chances than others and it’s not necessarily due to their skills or their experiences…
If you honestly think that they it’s a level playing field out there now then why don’t you agree that we should scrap the affirmative action all together? I mean, you’re not ‘special’ anymore, right? ...or do you want to feel like you did it all on your own but also get some extra help just in case?
PS. Good discussion...
I don't know when you recruited, and I don't doubt this, however I don't think that this would necessarily be the case across every regional in the recent years.
All within the last 10 years and I agree with you that it doesn’t always happen… My point is legalized discrimination is wrong whether we see it every day or only every now and then…
When I was hired, a lot of the regionals were hiring just about everyone, period. and like saltydog mentioned, the number of us have steadily increased through the recent years and while we're still in the minority there are a lot more women in the regionals... meaning I'm not *special* anymore!
Yes you are, the affirmative action says so and that’s why it’s wrong… You’re probably a great pilot but you should reach your goals like everyone else and not have to wonder if you got the job because you’re an innie or an outie… or white, black, hispanic, etc... Should not matter... (they’ll never admit it to you by the way). We shouldn't even have to include our race/gender information on our applications...
hotmamapilot, how come you discount yourself like that? how do you know that you were not a shoo-in due to your fantastic personality or who knows what else recruiters look for? on paper, any military guy or someone with extensive intl/widebody/etc. would be more "qualified" than someone who doesnt have the above experience. and I'm not a recruiter but this is obviously not the only thing they look at... besides, 8 years of flying saabs is obviously not the same as f-16 or c-17, but it's still 8 years of flying 121. flipping through the past 10 pages or so it seems like numerous other guys got in with just part 135 turboprop time (or something else that isnt military) and one rec too, and you dont hear them saying i was just a shoo-in. I dunno, you may well have been a shoo-in, but unless the interviewer told me directly that that had been the case, I just wouldn't assume that about myself esp since it's not like you got hired with 500 hrs.
I don’t think she’s discounting herself, I think she’s being realistic… You have an idealistic view of this profession but once hiring resumes again soon enough you’ll realize that some people have better chances than others and it’s not necessarily due to their skills or their experiences…
If you honestly think that they it’s a level playing field out there now then why don’t you agree that we should scrap the affirmative action all together? I mean, you’re not ‘special’ anymore, right? ...or do you want to feel like you did it all on your own but also get some extra help just in case?
PS. Good discussion...
06-19-2009, 08:10 PM
#67
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2006
Position: Student Pilot
Posts: 849
yes, it actually was my sex status that helped me to achieve my stellar regional career.
dude, i sense an argumentative tone here... i may be wrong, but it seems like you think that i am all for AA... i am quite unsure why this argument is even taking place because i never mentioned AA??? I DID say that I never expected special treatment.... but rather, its the guys around me who expect that i get special treatment. thats just the part that really annoys me, i mean i'd understand the snide and bitter comments if i were hired by some major at my current qualifications instead of sitting in the seat right next to them. yeah i might flash a flirty smile at a ramper to help us get that much-needed lav service, and that smile might not work had it come from a burly male pilot, but these days thats probably as far as the power of my sex goes.
i never thought or said that it's a level playing field... unfortunately (or fortunately, depending on who you know) its not and never will be for all the reasons above and probably a 100 more that is beyond my realm of reasoning. i do think however that the united-style hiring is never going to happen again due to the fact that there are a LOT more women in aviation now than even 5, 10 years ago.
the whole reason why i even responded in this thread was because hotmama mentioned that its wrong that women expect the sex card - my response was that most women DONT even expect that. so whether the expectation is right or wrong is all a nonissue to begin with.
… You’re probably a great pilot but you should reach your goals like everyone else i'm not sure if i'm misunderstanding your post... did I say before that i didn't or don't want to reach my goals like everyone else..?? because.. i have.. and i do.. 
I don’t think she’s discounting herself, I think she’s being realistic… You have an idealistic view of this profession idealistic view would be me, at age 30, in the right seat of 747 for delta...how ideal
.. or would that be realistic in your definition since i'm a woman and thus would receive preferential hiring?but once hiring resumes again soon enough you’ll realize that some people have better chances than others and it’s not necessarily due to their skills or their experiences… my point was not that she was wrong about herself, just that she was putting herself down unnecessarily. i did say that she might well have gotten in JUST because of her sex... but its also a possibility that she was qualified in the recruiters' opinion, period (because she WAS experienced, not like she was some newbie). why you were hired or not is something you would never know for sure unless the hiring board itself told you so. so my question to her was why undermine yourself by saying "oh i only got hired because i was a female." i think this is where men and women differ - you would almost never hear males say something disparaging about themselves whether its true or not. (self deprecating jokes are a different story because you know the joker doesnt actually mean it.)
yes i do see that some people have better chances than others that have nothing to do with flight qualifications. family, friends, neighbors, golf buddies, fraternity association, sex, race, pure luck and timing, tallness (apparently tall people are more successful in general), etc. etc. there's no end to it. yes even young people like me can clearly see this. and it sucks, because i havent a single family or buddy in the majors to rope me in, but whats the point of whining about a mere fact of life that is nepotism?
If you honestly think that they it’s a level playing field out there now then why don’t you agree that we should scrap the affirmative action all together? you can scrap if for all i care, i never asked for it! I mean, you’re not ‘special’ anymore, right? ...or do you want to feel like you did it all on your own but also get some extra help just in case?
PS. Good discussion...
I don’t think she’s discounting herself, I think she’s being realistic… You have an idealistic view of this profession idealistic view would be me, at age 30, in the right seat of 747 for delta...how ideal
.. or would that be realistic in your definition since i'm a woman and thus would receive preferential hiring?but once hiring resumes again soon enough you’ll realize that some people have better chances than others and it’s not necessarily due to their skills or their experiences… my point was not that she was wrong about herself, just that she was putting herself down unnecessarily. i did say that she might well have gotten in JUST because of her sex... but its also a possibility that she was qualified in the recruiters' opinion, period (because she WAS experienced, not like she was some newbie). why you were hired or not is something you would never know for sure unless the hiring board itself told you so. so my question to her was why undermine yourself by saying "oh i only got hired because i was a female." i think this is where men and women differ - you would almost never hear males say something disparaging about themselves whether its true or not. (self deprecating jokes are a different story because you know the joker doesnt actually mean it.)yes i do see that some people have better chances than others that have nothing to do with flight qualifications. family, friends, neighbors, golf buddies, fraternity association, sex, race, pure luck and timing, tallness (apparently tall people are more successful in general), etc. etc. there's no end to it. yes even young people like me can clearly see this. and it sucks, because i havent a single family or buddy in the majors to rope me in, but whats the point of whining about a mere fact of life that is nepotism?
If you honestly think that they it’s a level playing field out there now then why don’t you agree that we should scrap the affirmative action all together? you can scrap if for all i care, i never asked for it! I mean, you’re not ‘special’ anymore, right? ...or do you want to feel like you did it all on your own but also get some extra help just in case?
PS. Good discussion...
i never thought or said that it's a level playing field... unfortunately (or fortunately, depending on who you know) its not and never will be for all the reasons above and probably a 100 more that is beyond my realm of reasoning. i do think however that the united-style hiring is never going to happen again due to the fact that there are a LOT more women in aviation now than even 5, 10 years ago.
the whole reason why i even responded in this thread was because hotmama mentioned that its wrong that women expect the sex card - my response was that most women DONT even expect that. so whether the expectation is right or wrong is all a nonissue to begin with.
06-19-2009, 08:36 PM
#68
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2006
Posts: 3,333
yes, it actually was my sex status that helped me to achieve my stellar regional career.
dude, i sense an argumentative tone here... i may be wrong, but it seems like you think that i am all for AA... i am quite unsure why this argument is even taking place because i never mentioned AA??? I DID say that I never expected special treatment.... but rather, its the guys around me who expect that i get special treatment. thats just the part that really annoys me, i mean i'd understand the snide and bitter comments if i were hired by some major at my current qualifications instead of sitting in the seat right next to them. yeah i might flash a flirty smile at a ramper to help us get that much-needed lav service, and that smile might not work had it come from a burly male pilot, but these days thats probably as far as the power of my sex goes.
i never thought or said that it's a level playing field... unfortunately (or fortunately, depending on who you know) its not and never will be for all the reasons above and probably a 100 more that is beyond my realm of reasoning. i do think however that the united-style hiring is never going to happen again due to the fact that there are a LOT more women in aviation now than even 5, 10 years ago.
the whole reason why i even responded in this thread was because hotmama mentioned that its wrong that women expect the sex card - my response was that most women DONT even expect that. so whether the expectation is right or wrong is all a nonissue to begin with.
dude, i sense an argumentative tone here... i may be wrong, but it seems like you think that i am all for AA... i am quite unsure why this argument is even taking place because i never mentioned AA??? I DID say that I never expected special treatment.... but rather, its the guys around me who expect that i get special treatment. thats just the part that really annoys me, i mean i'd understand the snide and bitter comments if i were hired by some major at my current qualifications instead of sitting in the seat right next to them. yeah i might flash a flirty smile at a ramper to help us get that much-needed lav service, and that smile might not work had it come from a burly male pilot, but these days thats probably as far as the power of my sex goes.
i never thought or said that it's a level playing field... unfortunately (or fortunately, depending on who you know) its not and never will be for all the reasons above and probably a 100 more that is beyond my realm of reasoning. i do think however that the united-style hiring is never going to happen again due to the fact that there are a LOT more women in aviation now than even 5, 10 years ago.
the whole reason why i even responded in this thread was because hotmama mentioned that its wrong that women expect the sex card - my response was that most women DONT even expect that. so whether the expectation is right or wrong is all a nonissue to begin with.
Not sure why you sense an argumentative tone from me? I even mentioned that I enjoyed the discussion; I guess a discussion to you means being argumentative? Also, I’ve tried to be respectful to you so I’m not sure why you resort to calling me dude? I don’t even know you…
I replied to you because in my view you are contradicting yourself… You don’t agree with hotmama’s thoughts on AA yet you say that you don’t expect ‘special treatment’? Well, guess what, our own government provides you with that special treatment whether you want it or not.
I simply said that AA is wrong and hotmama agreed with me on that subject even though she’s a woman. You keep saying that it’s the ‘guys around you' who expect you to get a preferential treatment.. Wait long enough and you probably will… That’s why they are ‘expecting’ that…
That’s all.
PS. I really don't care about your "sex status" but your gender probably will matter in this discussion...
Again, I want to emphasize that I think both racism and sexism still exist to a certain extent and I do not know how to solve that problem... However, I don't think the way our government is doing it is the best way to deal with the problem... Why? Because discrimination is always wrong whether it’s done by individuals or by the government...
Last edited by ⌐ AV8OR WANNABE; 06-19-2009 at 08:56 PM.
06-19-2009, 09:45 PM
#70
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2006
Posts: 3,333
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