FAA Reauthorization - RLA amendment`
06-20-2009, 03:32 PM
#91
Slainge Var'
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: Zeppelin Tail Gunner
Posts: 1,530
Aeris, ........
Since your last post seems a bit "emotional", let me see if I can help or at least offer some final suggestions.
1. As for your comment "I don't understand why in this day and age...."
There are some things I can help you with and others, like your cognitive understanding....well........that is your responsibility.
2. As for your comment, "What ever happened to class and craft?".
Well........nothing. Hope that helps.
3. You seem like a funny guy, with a good sense of humor, so in regards to your comment on Prater and moustaches....
That's easy,......stop obsessing over men. (Hell, on second thought, that might explain the emotionalism.) Not that there is anything wrong with that mind you.
And since I am answering questions....here is a PS for FDXLAG,
LAG...you asked "Is the term Active Member another way to call someone a prick?
Only in your case.
Hope that helps guys.
Since your last post seems a bit "emotional", let me see if I can help or at least offer some final suggestions.
1. As for your comment "I don't understand why in this day and age...."
There are some things I can help you with and others, like your cognitive understanding....well........that is your responsibility.
2. As for your comment, "What ever happened to class and craft?".
Well........nothing. Hope that helps.
3. You seem like a funny guy, with a good sense of humor, so in regards to your comment on Prater and moustaches....
That's easy,......stop obsessing over men. (Hell, on second thought, that might explain the emotionalism.) Not that there is anything wrong with that mind you.
And since I am answering questions....here is a PS for FDXLAG,
LAG...you asked "Is the term Active Member another way to call someone a prick?
Only in your case.
Hope that helps guys.
06-20-2009, 04:13 PM
#92
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2005
Position: 757 Capt
Posts: 2,418
Aeris....I understand........your argument centers on your objection to the "changing" of the rules while the game is in play, but what these workers are seeking is fairness in the application of existing regulation. There chief complaint is one of "application" vs all out change. Obviously they believe the UPS example gives them ammunition in that argument.
As for Laws changing in general. Laws change all the time for many many reasons. Societal, environmental, fairness in application, economic...yada yada, that list goes on. One example that may hit home..... remember deregulation? Fred was instrumental in it's creation and adoption, without which it could be argued, there would be no FedEx. One one hand the change created a huge overnight express industry on the other, it contributed to the decimation of the airline industry (people movers). My point is that the ability to change, modify, or redefine the application of....whatever you choose to call it, does not and should not only benefit corporations, but also occasionally, (while rare).........WORKERS.
What these workers are seeking as I understand it, is fairness under the law as it applies to already existing regulation. It is not a new argument but FedEx, through its economic might, has been able to wield considerable power in thwarting that effort. Hopefully, under this new administration in Washington, the issue will be addressed more fairly.
The question here is not so much a change, but whether the rules are being applied correctly and fairly and it is here where I think we may disagree. Thanks for the exchange.
As for Laws changing in general. Laws change all the time for many many reasons. Societal, environmental, fairness in application, economic...yada yada, that list goes on. One example that may hit home..... remember deregulation? Fred was instrumental in it's creation and adoption, without which it could be argued, there would be no FedEx. One one hand the change created a huge overnight express industry on the other, it contributed to the decimation of the airline industry (people movers). My point is that the ability to change, modify, or redefine the application of....whatever you choose to call it, does not and should not only benefit corporations, but also occasionally, (while rare).........WORKERS.
What these workers are seeking as I understand it, is fairness under the law as it applies to already existing regulation. It is not a new argument but FedEx, through its economic might, has been able to wield considerable power in thwarting that effort. Hopefully, under this new administration in Washington, the issue will be addressed more fairly.
The question here is not so much a change, but whether the rules are being applied correctly and fairly and it is here where I think we may disagree. Thanks for the exchange.
The world won't end if this legislation passes. But, it also won't be the panacea that the drivers envision. It will have some impact on the pilots, but, I would venture a guess that the greater duplication of effort lies in the drivers of FedEx Ground, Freight, and Express.
Having a union doesn't save a pension. Pensions have been frozen or eliminated across most of america. If you want a secure pension, then you need to find a govt job.
FedEx promises to deliver, late even 60s and it's free
fedex service info - options - money-back guarantee
UPS promises to deliver, late no longer than 2 hours and the priority freight charges will be refunded
UPS Air Cargo Priority Service Guarantee
06-20-2009, 06:11 PM
#93
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2009
Position: What day is it?
Posts: 963
And UPS and the teamsters through their political might are attemtping to impose their version of fairness.
Now that we are worried about the rules being applied correctly please explain why the Delta baggage handlers at say Salt Lake City are prevented from disrupting Delta's operation by the RLA but according to you it would be reasonable for gearjammer and 2 or 3 buddies to disrupt the Fedex operation in San Diego?
PS my Union Card says Active Member. What does it say on the really cool dudes union cards?
Is active member another way to call someone a prick?
Now that we are worried about the rules being applied correctly please explain why the Delta baggage handlers at say Salt Lake City are prevented from disrupting Delta's operation by the RLA but according to you it would be reasonable for gearjammer and 2 or 3 buddies to disrupt the Fedex operation in San Diego?
PS my Union Card says Active Member. What does it say on the really cool dudes union cards?
Is active member another way to call someone a prick?
Sounds a hell of a lot better than what's happening with ALPA. Our moustachioed gang has cut the balls of more than one, fubar'd USAir/AmWest and lost three representational elections in his first two years!
Word now is that he's gonna sit on his hands yet again and not lift a finger to help the Midwest Express pilots when the sale goes through to Republic. Hell, if the Teamsters even OFFER to take the pilots into Republic, that'll be more than ALPA's "fearless leader" has done.
It's about time everyone in cargo got off their butts and worked together. The only reason ALPA hasn't cut FedEx loose yet is because they need the dues money to keep the lights on. That became crystal clear last year when FedEx put up an extremely well qualified candidate to be VP of Finance and Prater engineered a drive to have his Executive Administrator, who had ZERO financial experience or backround (other than paying his bar tabs around DC), get the job. All because Prater did not want a "freight guy" in the leadership. (Or for that matter, a smart guy who could see how he is burning through cash faster than it's coming in). As he said, "ALPA is for legacy carriers." FedEx doesn't fit that bill.
If Fred wants to cancel planes, let him. You don't need a Masters to see that the UPS business model is considerably more sound in the long term than Fred's. The key is diversity and Fred is still trying to play catch up.
The advantage that UPS pilots and ground folks have is that each will support the other if they do walk out. A few years back, I had an Atlas pilot tell me that when they did informational picketing...not a strike...that the UPS drivers checked each time to make sure it was not a strike. They were going to refuse to deliver packages over the line.
That's solidarity. That's sticking up for each other. Can a FedEx pilot say the same thing? If FedEx ground folks went union, would the pilots support and honor a picket line? Or say, "it's not my problem, I'm a pilot."
It's time that we airline pilots quit the fantasy that we mean more because we fly jets. Surprise my fellow campers...depending on the airline, we're either bus drivers or truck drivers in the eyes of management. Ask Delta. They thought they were something special. They learned the hard way.
So...back to the question: any takers?
06-20-2009, 06:50 PM
#94
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2006
Position: 767 FO
Posts: 8,047
The Teamsters Airline Division has a former 3 term ALPA MEC Chairman from a cargo airline running it and from the news reports, cleaning house.
Sounds a hell of a lot better than what's happening with ALPA. Our moustachioed gang has cut the balls of more than one, fubar'd USAir/AmWest and lost three representational elections in his first two years!
Word now is that he's gonna sit on his hands yet again and not lift a finger to help the Midwest Express pilots when the sale goes through to Republic. Hell, if the Teamsters even OFFER to take the pilots into Republic, that'll be more than ALPA's "fearless leader" has done.
It's about time everyone in cargo got off their butts and worked together. The only reason ALPA hasn't cut FedEx loose yet is because they need the dues money to keep the lights on. That became crystal clear last year when FedEx put up an extremely well qualified candidate to be VP of Finance and Prater engineered a drive to have his Executive Administrator, who had ZERO financial experience or backround (other than paying his bar tabs around DC), get the job. All because Prater did not want a "freight guy" in the leadership. (Or for that matter, a smart guy who could see how he is burning through cash faster than it's coming in). As he said, "ALPA is for legacy carriers." FedEx doesn't fit that bill.
If Fred wants to cancel planes, let him. You don't need a Masters to see that the UPS business model is considerably more sound in the long term than Fred's. The key is diversity and Fred is still trying to play catch up.
The advantage that UPS pilots and ground folks have is that each will support the other if they do walk out. A few years back, I had an Atlas pilot tell me that when they did informational picketing...not a strike...that the UPS drivers checked each time to make sure it was not a strike. They were going to refuse to deliver packages over the line.
That's solidarity. That's sticking up for each other. Can a FedEx pilot say the same thing? If FedEx ground folks went union, would the pilots support and honor a picket line? Or say, "it's not my problem, I'm a pilot."
It's time that we airline pilots quit the fantasy that we mean more because we fly jets. Surprise my fellow campers...depending on the airline, we're either bus drivers or truck drivers in the eyes of management. Ask Delta. They thought they were something special. They learned the hard way.
So...back to the question: any takers?
Sounds a hell of a lot better than what's happening with ALPA. Our moustachioed gang has cut the balls of more than one, fubar'd USAir/AmWest and lost three representational elections in his first two years!
Word now is that he's gonna sit on his hands yet again and not lift a finger to help the Midwest Express pilots when the sale goes through to Republic. Hell, if the Teamsters even OFFER to take the pilots into Republic, that'll be more than ALPA's "fearless leader" has done.
It's about time everyone in cargo got off their butts and worked together. The only reason ALPA hasn't cut FedEx loose yet is because they need the dues money to keep the lights on. That became crystal clear last year when FedEx put up an extremely well qualified candidate to be VP of Finance and Prater engineered a drive to have his Executive Administrator, who had ZERO financial experience or backround (other than paying his bar tabs around DC), get the job. All because Prater did not want a "freight guy" in the leadership. (Or for that matter, a smart guy who could see how he is burning through cash faster than it's coming in). As he said, "ALPA is for legacy carriers." FedEx doesn't fit that bill.
If Fred wants to cancel planes, let him. You don't need a Masters to see that the UPS business model is considerably more sound in the long term than Fred's. The key is diversity and Fred is still trying to play catch up.
The advantage that UPS pilots and ground folks have is that each will support the other if they do walk out. A few years back, I had an Atlas pilot tell me that when they did informational picketing...not a strike...that the UPS drivers checked each time to make sure it was not a strike. They were going to refuse to deliver packages over the line.
That's solidarity. That's sticking up for each other. Can a FedEx pilot say the same thing? If FedEx ground folks went union, would the pilots support and honor a picket line? Or say, "it's not my problem, I'm a pilot."
It's time that we airline pilots quit the fantasy that we mean more because we fly jets. Surprise my fellow campers...depending on the airline, we're either bus drivers or truck drivers in the eyes of management. Ask Delta. They thought they were something special. They learned the hard way.
So...back to the question: any takers?
You clowns still think we are holding ourselves above the truckers; I want them held to the same standard as the pilots. Capisce*
* Mob lingo not intended to infer anything about my teamster buddies.
06-20-2009, 08:10 PM
#95
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2008
Posts: 104
[quote=ATCsaidDoWhat;632450]
If Fred wants to cancel planes, let him. You don't need a Masters to see that the UPS business model is considerably more sound in the long term than Fred's. The key is diversity and Fred is still trying to play catch up.
Great quote 30 years ago GM had a much better business model than Toyota as well. Keep that mindset I like it!!!
If Fred wants to cancel planes, let him. You don't need a Masters to see that the UPS business model is considerably more sound in the long term than Fred's. The key is diversity and Fred is still trying to play catch up.
Great quote 30 years ago GM had a much better business model than Toyota as well. Keep that mindset I like it!!!
06-20-2009, 08:56 PM
#96
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2006
Posts: 2,889
Dear Gear Jammer,
I just want to personally go on record to say that as a FedEx pilot and former union officer that I support you efforts 100% and I look forward to the possibility of a long future of mutual support. FedEx has gotten away with it’s double speak game for a long long time and now, but perhaps with a more fertile environment in Washington, change may be possible. Many of our pilots here have come from varied backgrounds, with many differing opinions and none, including mine should be considered our official union party line, but I like you, get frustrated when I hear people help the company do its dirty work. IMHO, buying into their false rhetoric, which you and I have already realized is just a weak cover in a long history of seeking to undermining unions, must make them sit back and laugh. Some of our employees have even called for support for political candidates with long track records of supporting anti union and more specifically anti pilot legislation, (remember baseball style arbitration) and worse. Smart? Not in my book, but certainly within their rights,……….but not what I understood the brotherhood to be about…but these are difficult times, the stress level is high and everyone is certainly entitled to express their opinions. In the end, the truth is always the truth and your efforts to improve and protect your profession and the livelihood of you family is a laudable goal, therefore, best of luck in your efforts and never ever give up the good fight. I never was one of those, “I got mine” types….and I remember vividly the struggle, so ignore the naysayers and push on.
I just want to personally go on record to say that as a FedEx pilot and former union officer that I support you efforts 100% and I look forward to the possibility of a long future of mutual support. FedEx has gotten away with it’s double speak game for a long long time and now, but perhaps with a more fertile environment in Washington, change may be possible. Many of our pilots here have come from varied backgrounds, with many differing opinions and none, including mine should be considered our official union party line, but I like you, get frustrated when I hear people help the company do its dirty work. IMHO, buying into their false rhetoric, which you and I have already realized is just a weak cover in a long history of seeking to undermining unions, must make them sit back and laugh. Some of our employees have even called for support for political candidates with long track records of supporting anti union and more specifically anti pilot legislation, (remember baseball style arbitration) and worse. Smart? Not in my book, but certainly within their rights,……….but not what I understood the brotherhood to be about…but these are difficult times, the stress level is high and everyone is certainly entitled to express their opinions. In the end, the truth is always the truth and your efforts to improve and protect your profession and the livelihood of you family is a laudable goal, therefore, best of luck in your efforts and never ever give up the good fight. I never was one of those, “I got mine” types….and I remember vividly the struggle, so ignore the naysayers and push on.
You certainly have the right to support and vote for who you see fit. Everyone has a right to an opinion.
However...I am ALSO a union official. I am giving up my time and a lot of headaches to promote our pilot group's interests. I contribute to the PAC. But...I am also married to a former Republican Delegate, and a very active state committee volunteer. If you have strong opinions on any issue, including the latest attempt to unionize the drivers, I am willing to listen to it and consider the pros and cons. I am still on the fence on the whole issue and trying to figure out what will best help OUR PILOTS and be in their long term best interests. However, as am employee who actively campaigned for John McCain, I would hope that you could also accept the idea that rising marginal tax rates and a potential tax on your health care benefits might mitigate any gains from a more "labor friendly" regime currently in office. I won't delve into a political joust...I let my bride deal with that stuff while I just try to enjoy flying around the world and taking care of the home team. The insuation, however, that only a hard-core pro-socialist agenda pilot can somehow represent the pilot group and those who don't aren't "brothers" is a bit troubling to me. Accepted fares, safe ground transportation, better retirement and healthcare options, protecting scope, and a host of other big and little issues don't wear a party label...they affect all our PILOTS. Some of us, while we may not always agree with you politically, are doing our best to try to take care of day to day stuff as well as move forward towards bigger and better things. I'd like to think that my work for my bros is more important than the bumper sticker on my truck, but if you think the only way to be a good "brother" is to support one party then I think we may have a problem. Last I checked, all the one party countries in the world had some pretty authoritarian regimes. Then again, some of us ran for office to prevent another LOA 90 day STV event ever being jammed up our ass from "the party", so maybe it is a pretty good analogy.
I'm a firm believer than a diversity of skill sets, backgrounds, and viewpoints will make a better product for all of us. I will not accept the idea that there is a political litmus test to win the title of solid pilot supporter. If you want to chat in detail on the issue, I'm in VIPS and on the website...
06-20-2009, 09:35 PM
#97
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,336
Albie
1. Dittos.....
2. You're a Great American.....
3. I'm Just saying.........
Said it all better than I could.
1. Dittos.....
2. You're a Great American.....
3. I'm Just saying.........
Said it all better than I could.
06-21-2009, 02:10 AM
#98
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Posts: 276
The question here is exactly a change. FedEx filed and incorporated as part of the RLA over 30 years ago. It's hard for me to imagine that there were no drivers operating as part of FedEx until recently. Because it is only recently that the drive to change a portion of FedEx Express from RLA began.
Having a union doesn't save a pension. Pensions have been frozen or eliminated across most of america. If you want a secure pension, then you need to find a govt job.
06-21-2009, 04:19 AM
#99
Slainge Var'
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: Zeppelin Tail Gunner
Posts: 1,530
And having a "gun" won't save your life if your home is invaded in the middle of the night. What it will do is give you a tool that may assist you in saving your own life. Likewise, a union. They're not perfect. In fact, they're not even effective 100% of the time. But they DO improve the odds of securing fair wages and working conditions. I think that's all these guys expect.
06-21-2009, 08:00 AM
#100
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Posts: 276
Exactly! But this is not a union or no union argument. The question at hand is whether they should organize, as a group, wearing the same uniform, doing the same job, for the same company, on the national level like we did under the RLA. Or...should the rules change so that they can organize in local fiefdoms. That's all. I haven't heard one argument saying that they shouldn'd have the right to organize.
Fred Smith has been asserting for years (and in a few cases, successfully) that route owners and their drivers operate "independently" of the parent corporation. By his recent statements, however, he appears to be reversing that position, by demanding that they "act as one" in their decision to organize.
He can't have it both ways.
Last edited by Whistlin' Dan; 06-21-2009 at 08:21 AM. Reason: Thought of some new, big words
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