Gunter

Are you referring to these sections of the CBA?

Section 24

D. Training/Activation Procedures
1. Except as provided in Section 24.D.2., D.3. and D.4. (below),
required training for a crew position shall be scheduled by
system seniority, senior first, for that crew position.

3. Training Due To Excess
a. Pilots involuntarily excessed from a crew status shall be
scheduled for training in reverse seniority order. Application
of this paragraph shall not trigger passover pay for the
involuntarily excessed pilots.


Sounds like you have an apples vs. oranges argument here. One PN going to SO and another to FO.

Gunter

Where in the CBA does it mention going to training in seniority order of the seat you are coming from instead of the seat you are going to?

ConnerP

You sound like you have a case of peni$ envy. Obviously they had something on their resume or in the interview that was being looked for that you must have lacked. After all, you weren't offered the opportunity. Most did have the International, the Heavy, the glass or whatever it was. Jet Blue and Air Tran sound like glass (320 &717). Do you now what they did before that? Not all "jumped hundreds". Not that order of interview has neccessarily ever meant anything, anywhere. Ya' don't get your seniority number then and there.

The money was good, the commute was brutal. Most just wanted the first seniority number they could get. I'll take QOL over money just about every time. Many/most had done the panel before too. Don't think anybody is asking you to feel sorry for them.

Deal of the century? Hardly. Good deal? Sure, I guess so. I'll apologize right now for jumping in with a baseball bat but I think some think it was a far better deal than it actually was and don't really know.

Gunter

Some knew the right people....Big player at purple.

MaxKts

Read what you quoted! It is "apples vs oranges". 24.D.1 talks about "crew position" - 24.D.3.a does not

Sec 3a does not anywhere mention crew position it only states "shall be scheduled for training in reverse seniority order"

Once again the company is choosing to take one paragraph and merge it with another to get what they want by saying "this is how we have always done it"! Problem is we haven't done this before. This is a direct violation of what is written. Unfortunately ALPA is not helping by agreeing with the company. May be time to hire a lawyer.

ConnerP

I'll buy that too. I'm sure that was a player in some cases.
I've always heard "it's not what you know but who you know" and "connections, connections, connections".

meatloaf

Sounds like the bid planners could use some connections too.

Positive and Negative. With about 20,000 volts.

AFW_MD11

Exactly my point. Thank you.

And, not only this, but now they're delving into ALL areas of the contract and saying - "even though we haven't ever done it this way in the past......we have now decided to apply our NEW interpretation and start 'enforcing' the contract in this new way now."

4.A.2.b
Accepted Fares
Seniority Order of Training after being involuntarily excessed
Reserve-day value
Passover Pay (and the virtual training letter)
Unsafe Ground Transportation
Unsafe/Disputed Pairing "process" (joke)
Unsafe use (or non-use) of RFO
Excess Bid modifications/cancellations (and the -1 bump/flush scheme)
SIG Lockout

(to name a few)

(every one of which, so far, is detrimental to the pilot group and favors the company - of course)

Their answer - "grieve it if you don't think it's fair and/or in accordance with the CBA - meanwhile, we'll continue to enforce our new interpretation until it's finally litigated and a judge/arbitrator tells us we have to stop."

Where's our representation? Busy granting the company relief and/or making all these "settlement agreements" that merely put in writing and AGREE TO the company's new interpretation/application/twisting of the intent of the CBA.

olly

The grievance is a little vague, stating " Generally, pilots who were involuntarily excessed from a higher paying crew position to a lower paying crew position, and were then scheduled for training by the Company out of strict inverse seniority order will receive pay protection at the higher paying rate until a projected activation date that is based on when the pilot would have activated if the training order was accomplished in strict inverse seniority order....."

According to the below contract language sect 24D
I believe the company is focusing on the “hold an award for the same crew position” tenant.

The company views the excessed PN pilots “choose” FO over SO (different & higher paying crew position). Only the most senior few could hold 727 FO, the rest were too junior. I’m assuming all fell under the involuntary excess. Within the SO excessee’s- I believe the training is all in inverse sr order.

24D.2 Passover Pay Due To Junior Pilot's Early Activation
a. In case of a junior pilot's activation to a higher paying position out of seniority order, every senior pilot who meets the following prerequisites shall be paid as if he had activated in that higher paying position (passover pay):

i. the junior pilot and the senior pilot(s) hold an award for the same crew position; and

ii. the junior pilot's award is from the same posting as the senior pilot's award or from a subsequent posting; and

iii. the Company chooses to activate the junior pilot prior to the senior pilot(s) and the junior pilot's activation delays the training and activation of the senior pilot(s).

I’ve heard the company espouse that we’re 300 in excess. Ironically, that’s roughly the same number of active over 60 guys. Reserve FO’s in ANC can’t drop or trade an R-day. Thru at least the 10th, every single reserve “A” FO flew a trip, but we’re overmanned?

Can’t understand the angst against the PN’s. Every pilot senior to them had the chance to bid MD-11 ANC FO. It was a good deal, but as mentioned came w/ some pain. Most PN’s have done 72 SO elsewhere, and have been furloughed. Don’t relish the prospect of my 10th year in the biz being back on the panel pushing 50. However that deal is better than being stuck on the panel for the past 3+ years/ indefinitely or furloughed. All the PN’s realize that, and are appreciative of our fortunate timing.

olly

The grievance is a little vague, stating " Generally, pilots who were involuntarily excessed from a higher paying crew position to a lower paying crew position, and were then scheduled for training by the Company out of strict inverse seniority order will receive pay protection at the higher paying rate until a projected activation date that is based on when the pilot would have activated if the training order was accomplished in strict inverse seniority order....."

According to the below contract language sect 24D
I believe the company is focusing on the “hold an award for the same crew position” tenant.

The company views the excessed PN pilots “choose” FO over SO (different & higher paying crew position). Only the most senior few could hold 727 FO, the rest were too junior. I’m assuming all fell under the involuntary excess. Within the SO excessee’s- I believe the training is all in inverse sr order.

24D.2 Passover Pay Due To Junior Pilot's Early Activation
a. In case of a junior pilot's activation to a higher paying position out of seniority order, every senior pilot who meets the following prerequisites shall be paid as if he had activated in that higher paying position (passover pay):

i. the junior pilot and the senior pilot(s) hold an award for the same crew position; and

ii. the junior pilot's award is from the same posting as the senior pilot's award or from a subsequent posting; and

iii. the Company chooses to activate the junior pilot prior to the senior pilot(s) and the junior pilot's activation delays the training and activation of the senior pilot(s).

I’ve heard the company espouse that we’re 300 in excess. Ironically, that’s roughly the same number of active over 60 guys. Reserve FO’s in ANC can’t drop or trade an R-day. Thru at least the 10th, every single reserve “A” FO flew a trip, but we’re overmanned?

Can’t understand the angst against the PN’s. Every pilot senior to them had the chance to bid MD-11 ANC FO. It was a good deal, but as mentioned came w/ some pain. Most PN’s have done 72 SO elsewhere, and have been furloughed. Don’t relish the prospect of my 10th year in the biz being back on the panel pushing 50. However that deal is better than being stuck on the panel for the past 3+ years/ indefinitely or furloughed. All the PN’s realize that, and are appreciative of our fortunate timing.