OK I'm done
05-29-2009, 05:10 AM
#22
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2006
Position: I was acquired, Not Hired
Posts: 1,784
Good Point !
Agreeing with your train of thought, why doesn't the EB publish who volunteered for the MOU ?
I give the EB credit for making a respectable effort in getting the info to us about the MOU and providing info as to how to participate, but they were unsuccessful in getting the MOU passed. All we needed was a measely $40 mil...how an earth will they be able to enforce an open time ban.
Us, ANC-based pilots received an email from an IPA-er that does our schedules and he said in his own words, "I believe that the company is on a fishing trip to get contractual concessions from us", and we should, "stand up to the company in a trucker strike".
If we cant get participation in the MOU, I doubt we are unified to even have a bake sale..just my opinion.
Hopefully, we will unite in the next week.
FF
05-29-2009, 05:47 AM
#23
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2008
Position: MD CA
Posts: 705
Hopefully, we will unite in the next week.
I dont see it happening. Sad, but True. The game is over. Half way there and 4 days to go. So the next question is, what is UPS going to do? Remember the ALL or Nothing. I don't believe it for a second. UPS will be coming to the Union to see if they can still get some savings. And Reduce the Furlough. And UPS will Furlough. This is the Second time they have gone down this path. They would lose huge credibility if they dont Furlough some.
But 300 ain't happening.
I dont see it happening. Sad, but True. The game is over. Half way there and 4 days to go. So the next question is, what is UPS going to do? Remember the ALL or Nothing. I don't believe it for a second. UPS will be coming to the Union to see if they can still get some savings. And Reduce the Furlough. And UPS will Furlough. This is the Second time they have gone down this path. They would lose huge credibility if they dont Furlough some.
But 300 ain't happening.
05-29-2009, 09:43 AM
#24
Banned
Joined APC: May 2006
Posts: 540
This is an excellent question. I believe that the IPA hasn't addressed this issue because we haven't crossed that bridge yet, and also because of the legal ramifications of "outing" the scumbags that would disregard an opentime/JA ban.
I bet we'll be told that there is nothing we can do about it as a union. Plastering their names and faces on the front page of the IPA website sounds good to me, but I'm sure that the fear of being sued by the individual, or disciplinary action from the company (harassment of a co-worker) would preclude us from doing this very thing. So, in the end, there will be absolutely nothing done to punish these guys. Anyone out there have any other ideas?
I bet we'll be told that there is nothing we can do about it as a union. Plastering their names and faces on the front page of the IPA website sounds good to me, but I'm sure that the fear of being sued by the individual, or disciplinary action from the company (harassment of a co-worker) would preclude us from doing this very thing. So, in the end, there will be absolutely nothing done to punish these guys. Anyone out there have any other ideas?
05-29-2009, 12:42 PM
#25
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2006
Position: DC-8 756/767
Posts: 1,144
Hopefully, we will unite in the next week.
I dont see it happening. Sad, but True. The game is over. Half way there and 4 days to go. So the next question is, what is UPS going to do? Remember the ALL or Nothing. I don't believe it for a second. UPS will be coming to the Union to see if they can still get some savings. And Reduce the Furlough. And UPS will Furlough. This is the Second time they have gone down this path. They would lose huge credibility if they dont Furlough some.
But 300 ain't happening.
I dont see it happening. Sad, but True. The game is over. Half way there and 4 days to go. So the next question is, what is UPS going to do? Remember the ALL or Nothing. I don't believe it for a second. UPS will be coming to the Union to see if they can still get some savings. And Reduce the Furlough. And UPS will Furlough. This is the Second time they have gone down this path. They would lose huge credibility if they dont Furlough some.
But 300 ain't happening.
I agree and think that there is a reason why the deadline ends almost 5 days before they will notify the union. I think and hope they can at least come to a new agreement that furloughs less people with the savings we have made. I am still going with at least 150-200 gone by Sept. 7th. Very sad with the so called 100% unity.
05-29-2009, 07:37 PM
#26
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2005
Position: 757/767 Capt
Posts: 649
Aseweepay,
I have a theory about the percieved lack of compassion/selfishness of the guys you've been flying with. I have to assume your ANC based, if thats true, my theory is any Guys that volunteered to go up to ANC to be a Captain are in it for the money plain and simple. Unless they love Alaska or were raised there most of the guys I spoke to who were heading up to ANC were in it to upgrade ASAP and make Captains pay irregardless of quality of life etc....So it stands to reason that most of them would be motivated primarily for money...I mean you could pay me $500,000 a year and I wouldn't go there!!! if you are ANC based do you feel this is a valid theory? Hopefully those in the lower 48 aren't chasing the dollar and will be more willing to contribute to the MOU.
I have a theory about the percieved lack of compassion/selfishness of the guys you've been flying with. I have to assume your ANC based, if thats true, my theory is any Guys that volunteered to go up to ANC to be a Captain are in it for the money plain and simple. Unless they love Alaska or were raised there most of the guys I spoke to who were heading up to ANC were in it to upgrade ASAP and make Captains pay irregardless of quality of life etc....So it stands to reason that most of them would be motivated primarily for money...I mean you could pay me $500,000 a year and I wouldn't go there!!! if you are ANC based do you feel this is a valid theory? Hopefully those in the lower 48 aren't chasing the dollar and will be more willing to contribute to the MOU.
05-29-2009, 07:51 PM
#27
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: Brown 747-400
Posts: 524
There is no punishment required. You don't have to publish a list of those who didn't give, but you could publish one of those who did! Or you could give them a tie tac pin of some sort for "giving" or sharing in the sacrifice. Not having your name on a list or a pin to wear could actually be a motivator. End result would be better than doing a "non-helper" list.
I talking about guys that would disregard the JA/opentime ban, not those that did or did not contribute to the MOU. Two different things.
05-29-2009, 08:51 PM
#28
Line Holder
Joined APC: Sep 2005
Position: seated, but sometimes I get up and walk around
Posts: 96
Aseweepay,
I have a theory about the percieved lack of compassion/selfishness of the guys you've been flying with. I have to assume your ANC based, if thats true, my theory is any Guys that volunteered to go up to ANC to be a Captain are in it for the money plain and simple. Unless they love Alaska or were raised there most of the guys I spoke to who were heading up to ANC were in it to upgrade ASAP and make Captains pay irregardless of quality of life etc....So it stands to reason that most of them would be motivated primarily for money...I mean you could pay me $500,000 a year and I wouldn't go there!!! if you are ANC based do you feel this is a valid theory? Hopefully those in the lower 48 aren't chasing the dollar and will be more willing to contribute to the MOU.
I have a theory about the percieved lack of compassion/selfishness of the guys you've been flying with. I have to assume your ANC based, if thats true, my theory is any Guys that volunteered to go up to ANC to be a Captain are in it for the money plain and simple. Unless they love Alaska or were raised there most of the guys I spoke to who were heading up to ANC were in it to upgrade ASAP and make Captains pay irregardless of quality of life etc....So it stands to reason that most of them would be motivated primarily for money...I mean you could pay me $500,000 a year and I wouldn't go there!!! if you are ANC based do you feel this is a valid theory? Hopefully those in the lower 48 aren't chasing the dollar and will be more willing to contribute to the MOU.
You may be right. I am ANC based and we do have a lot of Captains that are trying to "pile it up" before they retire and there were no other CA bids available to them, we have guys that just want to fly the 744, and we have guys that are too junior to hold CA anywhere else.
I had an interesting talk with a very senior CA today about this whole situation. He made the point that he thinks this MOU is very devicive, some give a little, some a lot and some not at all. What happens when someone very junior who gave up a lot (if they are not furloughed) flies with someone that gave nothing and is picking up opentime or someone not in the bottom 300 flies with someone from the bottom 300 that may have given less than them even though they had more to lose. Again, guys are giving what they can and we should respect that, but if you look at the B&G you can already see people grouping others together by giving/not giving and by how much.
I am not saying I agree or disagree, but in his opinion, we would have been better off starting with the company proposal of freezing the rates to 2008 rates and 3%on the B-fund for a specific time period, say a year or whatever is negotiated, then you see how many people are willing (totally voluntary again) to take a leave or military or early out and subtract that amount, then maybe everyone left would take a 1% or 2% hit instead. That way everyone is giving an equal amount and everyone stayes on property, which could also help schedules to slack a little bit if we are truly overstaffed. To him it would have been a simple way to take care of business given the time constraint and what he sees as the complexity of the MOU agreement (37.5 rdg vs 55 vs 65, trying to find a J/S partner) etc.... I told him I think the problem with that is that would be seen as concessionary since it is messing with our pay rate, which is why he said it would be for a specific time period or have very specific concrete triggers back to full pay. I guess the problem is that like the passenger airlines, they can always come up with an excuse to extend the cut, but who is to say they won't do that with this MOU somehow....we will see.....I hope we/the IPA have a good "plan B".....
05-30-2009, 02:58 AM
#29
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2005
Position: 757/767 Capt
Posts: 649
Asweepay,
I agree this MOU has the potential of causing some big rifts in the ranks, but its still worthwhile and if we pull it off it will be historic!! I do know that my contribution is a few months mil leave, and if this MOU fails I'm committed to take the mil anyway irregardless, so I will be real ****ed if this thing falls apart and I'm sitting in Afghanistan while non-participaters are sipping martini's on their backyard decks. I'm also getting ticked-off with alot of the older guys who feel they've been persecuted and ridiculed by the young guys over the 65 rule and are not participating out of spite or apathy. Good luck to you, My Dad went bankrupt twice while I was growing up and it sucks, I know how your feeling, My 2 cents, even if the MOU numbers don't meet the goals, UPS would be nuts to furlough more than a token few, or they will reap the bad "ju-ju" from the rest of us for a very long time. My guess is UPS will accept the savings we've given so far in the MOU and couple it with the DC-8 retirement savings to save face and avoid a furlough..
Lets hope!,
Vito
I agree this MOU has the potential of causing some big rifts in the ranks, but its still worthwhile and if we pull it off it will be historic!! I do know that my contribution is a few months mil leave, and if this MOU fails I'm committed to take the mil anyway irregardless, so I will be real ****ed if this thing falls apart and I'm sitting in Afghanistan while non-participaters are sipping martini's on their backyard decks. I'm also getting ticked-off with alot of the older guys who feel they've been persecuted and ridiculed by the young guys over the 65 rule and are not participating out of spite or apathy. Good luck to you, My Dad went bankrupt twice while I was growing up and it sucks, I know how your feeling, My 2 cents, even if the MOU numbers don't meet the goals, UPS would be nuts to furlough more than a token few, or they will reap the bad "ju-ju" from the rest of us for a very long time. My guess is UPS will accept the savings we've given so far in the MOU and couple it with the DC-8 retirement savings to save face and avoid a furlough..
Lets hope!,
Vito
05-30-2009, 04:30 AM
#30
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2005
Position: Leftof longitudinal
Posts: 1,899
Asweepay,
I agree this MOU has the potential of causing some big rifts in the ranks, but its still worthwhile and if we pull it off it will be historic!! I do know that my contribution is a few months mil leave, and if this MOU fails I'm committed to take the mil anyway irregardless, so I will be real ****ed if this thing falls apart and I'm sitting in Afghanistan while non-participaters are sipping martini's on their backyard decks. I'm also getting ticked-off with alot of the older guys who feel they've been persecuted and ridiculed by the young guys over the 65 rule and are not participating out of spite or apathy. Good luck to you, My Dad went bankrupt twice while I was growing up and it sucks, I know how your feeling, My 2 cents, even if the MOU numbers don't meet the goals, UPS would be nuts to furlough more than a token few, or they will reap the bad "ju-ju" from the rest of us for a very long time. My guess is UPS will accept the savings we've given so far in the MOU and couple it with the DC-8 retirement savings to save face and avoid a furlough..
Lets hope!,
Vito
I agree this MOU has the potential of causing some big rifts in the ranks, but its still worthwhile and if we pull it off it will be historic!! I do know that my contribution is a few months mil leave, and if this MOU fails I'm committed to take the mil anyway irregardless, so I will be real ****ed if this thing falls apart and I'm sitting in Afghanistan while non-participaters are sipping martini's on their backyard decks. I'm also getting ticked-off with alot of the older guys who feel they've been persecuted and ridiculed by the young guys over the 65 rule and are not participating out of spite or apathy. Good luck to you, My Dad went bankrupt twice while I was growing up and it sucks, I know how your feeling, My 2 cents, even if the MOU numbers don't meet the goals, UPS would be nuts to furlough more than a token few, or they will reap the bad "ju-ju" from the rest of us for a very long time. My guess is UPS will accept the savings we've given so far in the MOU and couple it with the DC-8 retirement savings to save face and avoid a furlough..
Lets hope!,
Vito
Don't be ****ed sitting in the sand, you'll have self respect intact, nothing better. BTW, you have alot of others respect too. It is the leaders like you that will need to come forward to hold the place together and move onward to the challenges in 2012.
