UPS: MOU numbers
05-24-2009, 10:40 AM
#61
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2007
Posts: 295
Now...many of my union brothers/sisters who greedily took money out of my pocket by doing work that pilots that should have been hired but weren't, are desperately wanting me to "sacrifice" so that they can keep their jobs today.
My heart tells me to be a part of this MOU and sacrifice for my union brothers/sisters, but another part of me is angry that they didn't sacrifice for me for the last 12 years. Too many of them were maximizing their earnings potential with the company which enabled the company to not hire the number of pilots they really needed.
So my dilemma now is...should I participate?
I'm leaning to not participating in this MOU because I really don't think UPS will furlough if the MOU fails. The expense to replace ANC pilots, with the added expense of hiring once this economy begins growing again (many experts already believe we may be bottoming out, and the economy to begin growing again eary 2010) will prove the furlough to be a losing proposition financially for the company. I think they know this. They simply want to open up our current contract to reduce the benefits/salaries of our contract today.
Although I haven't made my final decision, I'm probably NOT going to participate for two reasons: I don't believe the company is really going to follow through on their furlough threat (they will attempt to save face by saying the number of pilots that were forced into retirement from the DC8 were sufficient savings needed to prevent a more dire furlough), and the second reason is that I'm disgusted that my fellow union brothers/sisters were so greedy during the previous 12 years here in their pick up of opentime, JAs, making up sick bank and maximizing line hours that I don't feel a compelling reason to "help them" when they were the ones being so greedy in the past.
My two cents.
My heart tells me to be a part of this MOU and sacrifice for my union brothers/sisters, but another part of me is angry that they didn't sacrifice for me for the last 12 years. Too many of them were maximizing their earnings potential with the company which enabled the company to not hire the number of pilots they really needed.
So my dilemma now is...should I participate?
I'm leaning to not participating in this MOU because I really don't think UPS will furlough if the MOU fails. The expense to replace ANC pilots, with the added expense of hiring once this economy begins growing again (many experts already believe we may be bottoming out, and the economy to begin growing again eary 2010) will prove the furlough to be a losing proposition financially for the company. I think they know this. They simply want to open up our current contract to reduce the benefits/salaries of our contract today.
Although I haven't made my final decision, I'm probably NOT going to participate for two reasons: I don't believe the company is really going to follow through on their furlough threat (they will attempt to save face by saying the number of pilots that were forced into retirement from the DC8 were sufficient savings needed to prevent a more dire furlough), and the second reason is that I'm disgusted that my fellow union brothers/sisters were so greedy during the previous 12 years here in their pick up of opentime, JAs, making up sick bank and maximizing line hours that I don't feel a compelling reason to "help them" when they were the ones being so greedy in the past.
My two cents.
OK, I'm confused. How exactly again have the bottom 300 screwed you during the past 12 years? You might have an axe to grind with all the picking up of OT/JAs by everyone, and how it has affected you over 12 years. Hardly something the bottom 300 is responsible for. OT/JA might be a legitimate concern to you, but I don't see why you would want to use this MOU to "get back" at people you feel did you wrong. If you are a senior FO, and there is a furlough, you will have additional senior FOs above you (displaced Captains).
Your other point about this being the opening of the contract. This MOU has not changed the contract; its not concessionary. However, if the integrity of the contract is your concern (and it is a very valid concern), I would imagine the failure of this MOU will have a much more adverse affect on 2012 negotiations than if the MOU passes and the current contract remains intact.
Last edited by J Dawg; 05-24-2009 at 11:41 AM.
05-24-2009, 10:42 AM
#62
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2007
Posts: 222
I'm leaning to not participating in this MOU because I really don't think UPS will furlough if the MOU fails. The expense to replace ANC pilots, with the added expense of hiring once this economy begins growing again (many experts already believe we may be bottoming out, and the economy to begin growing again eary 2010) will prove the furlough to be a losing proposition financially for the company. I think they know this. They simply want to open up our current contract to reduce the benefits/salaries of our contract today.
You may not believe in this program which is fine but if you could look into doing the minimum which in this case is donating 10 hours of sick bank time it will be good for the IPA to have the highest percentage of pilots participating in this as possible wether it works or not.
05-24-2009, 10:46 AM
#63
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2006
Posts: 266
This is my first post. I've been with UPS for nearly 12 years, and when I was hired I was told by the company that I'd probably have the opportunity to upgrade to captain at approximately 6-7 years.
Well...that hasn't happened, and for the most part, I think it's because of the many pilots in our union that pick up opentime, accept JA's, and do line improvement with the intention of maximizing hours. Every year since I've been here, I used about 20-30 hours of sick time and never once attempted to "make up" the used sick time. In essence...they allow the company to do more with less. I think this is the primary reason I don't have more people below me in seniority and why I'm still an FO.
During the last negotiations, the union announced at one of the meetings that over 70% of us were picking up opentime during negotiations! WOW...talk about chopping the legs out from underneath our negotiating team!!!! What kind of contract could we have gotten if we hadn't been picking up the extra trips? GREED!
Now...many of my union brothers/sisters who greedily took money out of my pocket by doing work that pilots that should have been hired but weren't, are desperately wanting me to "sacrifice" so that they can keep their jobs today.
I have lived within my means. I don't have a vacation house, I don't have an airplane, I haven't been on a vacation in 4 years, I have 3 kids in college, I own an old pickup truck and a van, and all I owe is a mortgage; but it takes every penny I earn today to meet my financial obligatons.
My heart tells me to be a part of this MOU and sacrifice for my union brothers/sisters, but another part of me is angry that they didn't sacrifice for me for the last 12 years. Too many of them were maximizing their earnings potential with the company which enabled the company to not hire the number of pilots they really needed.
So my dilemma now is...should I participate?
I've been with UPS long enough to know they don't care at all about me. I'm simply a tool to be used to make money. I understand that. UPS has no loyalty to the pilots. I really believe this entire effort is an attempt by the company to open up the contract and freeze salaries, reduce retirement benefits, increase health care premeims etc...anything...in order to make more money on top of the profits they already are earning.
UPS didn't invite the pilots to "share" in their obscene profits for years, but now, when times are lean, they want me to sacrifice to enable them to increase their profits today? UPS isn't losing money. They aren't close to losing money. They want to extract more profit, but out of the pilot employees as well as the rest of their employees.
I'm leaning to not participating in this MOU because I really don't think UPS will furlough if the MOU fails. The expense to replace ANC pilots, with the added expense of hiring once this economy begins growing again (many experts already believe we may be bottoming out, and the economy to begin growing again eary 2010) will prove the furlough to be a losing proposition financially for the company. I think they know this. They simply want to open up our current contract to reduce the benefits/salaries of our contract today.
Although I haven't made my final decision, I'm probably NOT going to participate for two reasons: I don't believe the company is really going to follow through on their furlough threat (they will attempt to save face by saying the number of pilots that were forced into retirement from the DC8 were sufficient savings needed to prevent a more dire furlough), and the second reason is that I'm disgusted that my fellow union brothers/sisters were so greedy during the previous 12 years here in their pick up of opentime, JAs, making up sick bank and maximizing line hours that I don't feel a compelling reason to "help them" when they were the ones being so greedy in the past.
My two cents.
Well...that hasn't happened, and for the most part, I think it's because of the many pilots in our union that pick up opentime, accept JA's, and do line improvement with the intention of maximizing hours. Every year since I've been here, I used about 20-30 hours of sick time and never once attempted to "make up" the used sick time. In essence...they allow the company to do more with less. I think this is the primary reason I don't have more people below me in seniority and why I'm still an FO.
During the last negotiations, the union announced at one of the meetings that over 70% of us were picking up opentime during negotiations! WOW...talk about chopping the legs out from underneath our negotiating team!!!! What kind of contract could we have gotten if we hadn't been picking up the extra trips? GREED!
Now...many of my union brothers/sisters who greedily took money out of my pocket by doing work that pilots that should have been hired but weren't, are desperately wanting me to "sacrifice" so that they can keep their jobs today.
I have lived within my means. I don't have a vacation house, I don't have an airplane, I haven't been on a vacation in 4 years, I have 3 kids in college, I own an old pickup truck and a van, and all I owe is a mortgage; but it takes every penny I earn today to meet my financial obligatons.
My heart tells me to be a part of this MOU and sacrifice for my union brothers/sisters, but another part of me is angry that they didn't sacrifice for me for the last 12 years. Too many of them were maximizing their earnings potential with the company which enabled the company to not hire the number of pilots they really needed.
So my dilemma now is...should I participate?
I've been with UPS long enough to know they don't care at all about me. I'm simply a tool to be used to make money. I understand that. UPS has no loyalty to the pilots. I really believe this entire effort is an attempt by the company to open up the contract and freeze salaries, reduce retirement benefits, increase health care premeims etc...anything...in order to make more money on top of the profits they already are earning.
UPS didn't invite the pilots to "share" in their obscene profits for years, but now, when times are lean, they want me to sacrifice to enable them to increase their profits today? UPS isn't losing money. They aren't close to losing money. They want to extract more profit, but out of the pilot employees as well as the rest of their employees.
I'm leaning to not participating in this MOU because I really don't think UPS will furlough if the MOU fails. The expense to replace ANC pilots, with the added expense of hiring once this economy begins growing again (many experts already believe we may be bottoming out, and the economy to begin growing again eary 2010) will prove the furlough to be a losing proposition financially for the company. I think they know this. They simply want to open up our current contract to reduce the benefits/salaries of our contract today.
Although I haven't made my final decision, I'm probably NOT going to participate for two reasons: I don't believe the company is really going to follow through on their furlough threat (they will attempt to save face by saying the number of pilots that were forced into retirement from the DC8 were sufficient savings needed to prevent a more dire furlough), and the second reason is that I'm disgusted that my fellow union brothers/sisters were so greedy during the previous 12 years here in their pick up of opentime, JAs, making up sick bank and maximizing line hours that I don't feel a compelling reason to "help them" when they were the ones being so greedy in the past.
My two cents.
Welcome to the board. I agree with you on your assessment of the company, but with volume and seats down we may be taking a risk by doing nothing. The furlough will affect almost everyone...the most junior 300 will suffer the most of course. I don't think you should paint the line guys with such a broad brush though...no one is taking money out of your pocket in the union by picking up open time or JA if they want to...and if a Captain wants to go out and buy a plane or boat or RV, that's his/her right too. We've got no business telling other folks how to live their lives when they abide by the contract. Everyone in the union has a right to earn and spend as much as they want to. They need to suck it up and take some pain if an OT/JA ban becomes necessary too.
I'm sorry you feel like you shouldn't contribute, but that's your choice and your right...this whole thing is voluntary. Please consider the guys (and they are many) that don't pick up OT/JA if that's what really bothers you about making a contribution. We need your help to make this work...so please contribute if you can....if you don't, that's ok too. Good luck to us all.
B2P
05-24-2009, 10:59 AM
#65
Tri-tanic operator
Joined APC: Jul 2006
Position: Doggie
Posts: 2,382
Actually I won't ...
Anyone in this business that can't live for 3-6 months without a paycheck is a liability to their union and its members. Sorry if you don't agree, don't like it or don't understand why ...
MOST of us can survive. There are some that can't because of recent life events (divorce, tragedy, 1st year pay, etc, etc). That isn't what I was referring to.
The liability is the FEW that chose to live a life that REQUIRES a 90-99 hour paycheck EVERY month. Its not many of us, that's what I was refering to ...
05-24-2009, 11:15 AM
#66
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2006
Posts: 120
Actually I won't ...
Anyone in this business that can't live for 3-6 months without a paycheck is a liability to their union and its members. Sorry if you don't agree, don't like it or don't understand why ...
MOST of us can survive. There are some that can't because of recent life events (divorce, tragedy, 1st year pay, etc, etc). That isn't what I was referring to.
The liability is the FEW that chose to live a life that REQUIRES a 90-99 hour paycheck EVERY month. Its not many of us, that's what I was refering to ...
Anyone in this business that can't live for 3-6 months without a paycheck is a liability to their union and its members. Sorry if you don't agree, don't like it or don't understand why ...
MOST of us can survive. There are some that can't because of recent life events (divorce, tragedy, 1st year pay, etc, etc). That isn't what I was referring to.
The liability is the FEW that chose to live a life that REQUIRES a 90-99 hour paycheck EVERY month. Its not many of us, that's what I was refering to ...
What others choose to do isn't your business. And making it your business is, in the end, divisive.
05-24-2009, 01:46 PM
#67
New Hire
Joined APC: May 2009
Posts: 3
Frontseat,
We couldn't be more far apart in belief of what our responsibilities are in life. I'm not saying you're wrong...but just a simple acknowledgement on what our priorities are in life and how they are so different.
I believe it a responsibility as a father who brought children into this life to give them every opportunity in life I was given if I am able. You determine this is my "airplane/vacation home". I don't think it anything similar. What I give my children, I am not benefitting in the least, but hoping to provide an opportunity for my children that I was given in life by my parents. Airplanes, vacations, fancy cars.....if you think those anything similar....we just have to agree to disagree.
What I do have serious disagreements with is you stating for the bottom 300 go all out for the open time and maximize their income. This is the greed that I talked about in my earlier post. These people's jobs are threatened because others have been flying time that people not employed by UPS should be flying and haven't been flying....because of the greed of my fellow union pilots. We should have over 3500 pilots employed by UPS...but for simple greed we don't. Maybe the line numbers 2600-2900 wouldn't be in jeopardy today...if it weren't for people flying trips that they flew....just to make more money.
I could have been a captain for 4-5 years earing 30-40K annually above what I've been making....except, captains above me, have been flying opentime, accepting JAs, making up sick time, increased hours in line improvement which allowed the company to not hire the people they needed to fly our trips.
In essence....you have proven my point as to why I don't feel compelled to sacrifice for my union brothers/sisters....because they have proven not to sacrifice for all of us each and every time they accept opentime, JAs, make up sick time and increase hours in line improvement! If the bottom 300 had not been flying extra time....maybe line numbers 2900-? would be in jeopardy and not 2600-2900! We'll never know.
Thank you....you have helped me decided not to participate in this MOU.
We couldn't be more far apart in belief of what our responsibilities are in life. I'm not saying you're wrong...but just a simple acknowledgement on what our priorities are in life and how they are so different.
I believe it a responsibility as a father who brought children into this life to give them every opportunity in life I was given if I am able. You determine this is my "airplane/vacation home". I don't think it anything similar. What I give my children, I am not benefitting in the least, but hoping to provide an opportunity for my children that I was given in life by my parents. Airplanes, vacations, fancy cars.....if you think those anything similar....we just have to agree to disagree.
What I do have serious disagreements with is you stating for the bottom 300 go all out for the open time and maximize their income. This is the greed that I talked about in my earlier post. These people's jobs are threatened because others have been flying time that people not employed by UPS should be flying and haven't been flying....because of the greed of my fellow union pilots. We should have over 3500 pilots employed by UPS...but for simple greed we don't. Maybe the line numbers 2600-2900 wouldn't be in jeopardy today...if it weren't for people flying trips that they flew....just to make more money.
I could have been a captain for 4-5 years earing 30-40K annually above what I've been making....except, captains above me, have been flying opentime, accepting JAs, making up sick time, increased hours in line improvement which allowed the company to not hire the people they needed to fly our trips.
In essence....you have proven my point as to why I don't feel compelled to sacrifice for my union brothers/sisters....because they have proven not to sacrifice for all of us each and every time they accept opentime, JAs, make up sick time and increase hours in line improvement! If the bottom 300 had not been flying extra time....maybe line numbers 2900-? would be in jeopardy and not 2600-2900! We'll never know.
Thank you....you have helped me decided not to participate in this MOU.
05-24-2009, 01:46 PM
#68
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2006
Position: F/O
Posts: 333
That's an unfair comment. Just because we have had a good contract for a few years does not mean everyone here has been able to put themselves in perfect financial shape. If you have been here or at brand X before contract 2006 you have had quite a few lean years.
05-24-2009, 01:56 PM
#69
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2006
Posts: 266
Having 3 kids is an expensive choice that you have made. Paying for their college is another choice. Having a mortgage is a choice as well.....This is your boat/airplane. It is not their right to go to college at your expense....and its your choice to live in a house with 3 kids in school.
I can't stand stand when pilots say they can't contribute because of their kids college. Just had an over 60 guy tell me that the other day.
As far as a pilot picking up a JA or overtime,,,,,,if he/she is in the lower 300 then all the power to them. They will most likely be shown the door soon or be taking RDG for many many many months in the future.
I can't stand stand when pilots say they can't contribute because of their kids college. Just had an over 60 guy tell me that the other day.
As far as a pilot picking up a JA or overtime,,,,,,if he/she is in the lower 300 then all the power to them. They will most likely be shown the door soon or be taking RDG for many many many months in the future.
B2P
05-24-2009, 01:56 PM
#70
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2006
Posts: 120
Frontseat,
We couldn't be more far apart in belief of what our responsibilities are in life. I'm not saying you're wrong...but just a simple acknowledgement on what our priorities are in life and how they are so different.
I believe it a responsibility as a father who brought children into this life to give them every opportunity in life I was given if I am able. You determine this is my "airplane/vacation home". I don't think it anything similar. What I give my children, I am not benefitting in the least, but hoping to provide an opportunity for my children that I was given in life by my parents. Airplanes, vacations, fancy cars.....if you think those anything similar....we just have to agree to disagree.
What I do have serious disagreements with is you stating for the bottom 300 go all out for the open time and maximize their income. This is the greed that I talked about in my earlier post. These people's jobs are threatened because others have been flying time that people not employed by UPS should be flying and haven't been flying....because of the greed of my fellow union pilots. We should have over 3500 pilots employed by UPS...but for simple greed we don't. Maybe the line numbers 2600-2900 wouldn't be in jeopardy today...if it weren't for people flying trips that they flew....just to make more money.
I could have been a captain for 4-5 years earing 30-40K annually above what I've been making....except, captains above me, have been flying opentime, accepting JAs, making up sick time, increased hours in line improvement which allowed the company to not hire the people they needed to fly our trips.
In essence....you have proven my point as to why I don't feel compelled to sacrifice for my union brothers/sisters....because they have proven not to sacrifice for all of us each and every time they accept opentime, JAs, make up sick time and increase hours in line improvement! If the bottom 300 had not been flying extra time....maybe line numbers 2900-? would be in jeopardy and not 2600-2900! We'll never know.
Thank you....you have helped me decided not to participate in this MOU.
We couldn't be more far apart in belief of what our responsibilities are in life. I'm not saying you're wrong...but just a simple acknowledgement on what our priorities are in life and how they are so different.
I believe it a responsibility as a father who brought children into this life to give them every opportunity in life I was given if I am able. You determine this is my "airplane/vacation home". I don't think it anything similar. What I give my children, I am not benefitting in the least, but hoping to provide an opportunity for my children that I was given in life by my parents. Airplanes, vacations, fancy cars.....if you think those anything similar....we just have to agree to disagree.
What I do have serious disagreements with is you stating for the bottom 300 go all out for the open time and maximize their income. This is the greed that I talked about in my earlier post. These people's jobs are threatened because others have been flying time that people not employed by UPS should be flying and haven't been flying....because of the greed of my fellow union pilots. We should have over 3500 pilots employed by UPS...but for simple greed we don't. Maybe the line numbers 2600-2900 wouldn't be in jeopardy today...if it weren't for people flying trips that they flew....just to make more money.
I could have been a captain for 4-5 years earing 30-40K annually above what I've been making....except, captains above me, have been flying opentime, accepting JAs, making up sick time, increased hours in line improvement which allowed the company to not hire the people they needed to fly our trips.
In essence....you have proven my point as to why I don't feel compelled to sacrifice for my union brothers/sisters....because they have proven not to sacrifice for all of us each and every time they accept opentime, JAs, make up sick time and increase hours in line improvement! If the bottom 300 had not been flying extra time....maybe line numbers 2900-? would be in jeopardy and not 2600-2900! We'll never know.
Thank you....you have helped me decided not to participate in this MOU.
As you accuse others of "greed", you display your bitterness and selfishness.
Those who pick up open time are doing so under the contract that was ratified by the majority. Sorry if you don't like it. It is their contractual right. (I didn't realize that I should limit my earnings so that YOU could upgrade)
BTW...I once flew with a guy who picks up OT so his kid can go to an Ivy league college. Is he "greedy?"
Last edited by notadog; 05-24-2009 at 02:06 PM.
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