FANS cripple

Thanks for the aero lesson. Now, just to be totally clear, you're saying you've actually seen guys respond to a V1 cut with only aileron?

viperdriver

Some airplanes you want a 5 degree bank into the good engine.

HIFLYR

Should you not already know and have "fundemental airmanship skills" before you make it to this level???

Jetjok

HIFLYR,

Normally I'd agree with you. However, sometimes these transport aircraft require a little more than "fundamental airmanship skills." As an example, when I learned to fly the MD-11, I had almost 10,000 hours of flying both military as well as transport category aircraft. I thought I had all my "fundamental skills" down pretty well. But the MD-11 lands like no other jet or prop plane I ever flew. Who ever heard of pushing forward on the yoke at 20' or 30' AGL. I had to relearn how to land. There's plenty of similar situations with big jets, that most of us learn along the way. That said, the problem I have is with Yeah Right's comment. He might indeed suck at crosswind landings, and that, in and of itself, while not desirable, is at least workable. The real problem is that he must be of the generation where nothing is ever his fault. You know, the generation that was always taught that everyone is a "winner" and that there are no "losers." I say this because, instead of admitting his shortcomings, he immediately deflects the blame by saying "If I did it would be because I was never taught fundemental airmanship by our instructors."

Hey, some guys will never be good at crosswind landings. The best we can hope for is that when confronted with one, that guy, knowing his limitations, gives the landing to the other crewmember. Either that, or he actually learns to land in a crosswind. After all, this sh!t is not rocket science. Except of course his comment "A V1 cut is a rudder manuever. Lift is a function of Lift coefficient times dynamic pressure times wing area. It is also affected by the Arc Cosign of the angle of sweep. As the angle of sweep approaches 0 the lift is maximized. As the angle of sweep increases lift is minimized." Give me a break, the coefficient times the dynamic pressure times wing area. YGBSM! I'm just glad I never knew that, because I'm quite certain knowing that would have ruined each and every one of my crosswind landings. This stuff IS NOT rocket science. What it is, is paying attention to detail, knowing your profiles, believing in yourself, your other crewmembers, and your training, and striving to get it perfect each and every time. At least that's how I see it, your view may vary.

JJ

HIFLYR

JJ,
We agree, I was just saying we are expected to have fundamental airmanship skills when hired. I believe we do a good job at teaching aircraft differences such as the stuff you learned in MD11 training. MY current ride the light twin "A300" behaves pretty straight forward, I guess the B757 is now the light twin. Does that make the A300 the fat twin?

FANS cripple

On the runway?

Lucky7

Yeah right. Nice quote from your old text book. Found another "fundamental" quote from the Flight Training handbook circa 1980 US DOT/FAA pub.

"The large rudder deflection required to counteract the assymetric thrust also results in a "lateral lift" force on the vertical fin. This lateral lift represents an unbalanced side force on the airplane which must be counteracted either by allowing the airplane to accelerate sideways until the lateral drag caused by the sideslip equals the rudder "lift" force or by banking into the operative engine and using a component of the airplane weight to counteract the rudder induced side force"

"With the rudder only the ball is centered, wings level and the airplane will be in a moderate sideslip toward the inop engine. Wings banked -ball off center to operative engine, zero sideslip."

" The sideslipping method has several major disadvantages. 1- the relative wind blowing on the inop engine side tends to increase the asymetric moment caused by the failure of one engine,2 the sideslip severely degrades stall characteristics and 3 the greater rudder deflection required to balance the extra moment and sideslip drag significantly reduce climb/acceleration capability"

"The magnitude of these effects vary from airplane to airplane but the principles are applicable on all cases"

I guess when your in a large transport big engine bird degradation of performance isn't that important,

Everybody else, Sorry for the long quote, The you're all doing it wrong diatribe always irks me.

Deuce130

I laughed out loud. Good stuff. I'm glad I didn't know that either, though I'm sure someone taught me that at some point during my stay in Zoomieland.

pipe

Random thoughts in response to this thread:

Our training program is somewhere between mediocre and fine. Ain't great......but it's fine.

The MD-11 sims are the highest quality simulators I've ever seen -- and I've seen quite a few. The 727 sims are the worst I've ever seen.

We have the worst bunch of crosswind landers in the industry. It's mind-boggling. Rudder to align the aircraft, aileron to stop the drift, add some power because you just added drag with the slip. Write it down. It's very, very simple. I really believe we have many guys in both seats that have never, ever heard it put that way.

The problem is in the culture, the hiring, and the evaluation and disciplinary processes. People at FedEx make every decision on the basis of staying out of trouble. Betcha the Enders Report says something very similar.

PIPE

Blackbeard

- The Maddog --- I used to defend against it's questionable landing reputation. However, in the landing regime there is an evil little corner. It so happens that if one were to get into a shoving match with the yoke, bad things can happen. This applies really to any phase of flight with it's relaxed stability design (gotta love that terminology). LSAS? Small elevator? Software? Overall poor pitch control design? The airplane was (and is) programmed to be flown smoothly (don't spill the drinks in the back). You can't jerk it around. But what if you need to be aggressive to avoid a disaster? It could very well be that given certain circumstances, such as gusty winds and/or poor airmanship, this airplane will BITE...... possibly to the extent that maintaining a stabilized approach may be impossible without going around. It is very susceptible to PIO (pilot induced oscillations).

- Fatigue --- I have just lowered my personal fatigue threshold on when to pull the trigger (or could it be I've flown fatigued when I shouldn't have?). I have never called in fatigued. That's about to change. Fatigue can be so damaging mostly due to loss of judgment. The biggest culprit.... consecutive 24-hour layovers. The body clock swaps are extremely bad.

- Apathy --- Generated mostly by management's roughshod treatment of this pilot group. Okay, just do the job. A to B. That's it. Nothing more, nothing less. I've even heard it said lately that it's not a career anymore... just a job. I can see how the pride in how we conduct ourselves at work can drop out of the picture. Could it be freight related? Sure I'm into self-preservation but could it be that flying packages around may be less rewarding than people? I don't think I buy this one but could be.

-Landing commitment --- Just a theory, but are we accepting landings that we should not accept or, at least, talk about (okay, debrief)? I do know that taking ownership of the MD-11 during the approach and landing is VITAL. YOU own IT. Not the other way around. Just because you get her down to 200' or less does not in any way, shape, or form mean that you are committed to land. The go-around is ALWAYS there (ok, up until the TR's).

- Non-current --- Like most careers in life, ya gotta practice your trade. This can be a real problem for our group. But I don't know what the answer is. The only thing I can think of is some sort of forced flying.... like a limit on RFO trips, R-lines, etc. It might just be up to us individually to ensure this happens.

- Airmanship --- We hire pilots with a very wide background but all of which, in theory, have proven credentials and experience. So some of us are better sticks than others - big deal, right? Along comes an airplane like the MD-11. If most airliners have a 6X6 box in which to land, I would say the 11 has about a 3X3 box (or envelope of margin, if you will). It simply requires more attention to detail along with cautious finesse. It is not a forgiving airplane. I think 90% of the crew force has the skill and ability to master the airplane. Which leads me to this....

- Training --- The problem may be a lack of emphasis regarding the relaxed stability aspect, pitch sensitivity, and tendency toward over controlling. It was never mentioned in the 2 training cycles that I went through but the point can be seen in the autopilot Warning in the CFM rev-1 (p. 1-1-0-7). PIO was also a factor in the Newark accident in 1997. Why not get out in front of these issues during training?

- Statistics and trends --- It's been said every airline goes through trends like this at some point or another. While I do believe that there is some truth here, obviously you don't just write this off to a statistical anomaly. Or do you? With the exception of the MD's handling characteristics, there doesn't seem to be any one common denominator. Remember, too, that other a/c fleets have been involved also (757 most recently).

These are not answers. Only thoughts. Anyone else?