AFW_MD11

Hasn't the company, by putting out the VACANCY bid prior to this excess, established that there are openings to be filled in HKG Captain (and FO)?

So, now it's different from before when hundreds bid HKG Capt (to relieve excess or to excess) - KNOWING they would be denied and earn POP?

NOW - they MIGHT NOT be denied the seat.

Before, it was a SURE THING that they'd be denied.

NOW - with the possiblity of having to actually go to HKG.......I think most of those bidding it strictly to be guaranteed POP will take HKG Capt out of their standing bid - cancelling their POP that they are getting now, or would get later.

Isn't THAT the crux of the matter? How many guys will leave it on their standing bid now that there's a possiblity of actually having to go there?

Busboy

Uhhh...Yah. That is correct. But, I was responding to the guy that was saying "the brave ones" would not get POP.

Hey! Oddly enough, I'm thinking "POPeye" doesn't know POP.

NoHaz

Lag is right.

There is no limit to how many excessers get HKG passover. The only impact that the 20 vacancies has is that the twenty most senior get the award and have to go to HKG. Everyone else gets on the virtual training letter and eventually gets passover as long as they can't hold WB capt elsewhere in the system and that they continue to bid HKG Capt. #1 100%

Popeye

I did not realize there was no limit to the number of pilots eligible for POP.

If a guy getting POP for HKG CA, now becomes senior enough to hold MEM CA, is he forced to take the MEM CA upgrade, or lose POP? Say he would not mind being a HKG CA, but otherwise would prefer to maintain his seniority and a WB FO. Does he lose his POP, the moment he can hold any system-wide WB CA seat, or specifically a WB seat in HKG?

AFW_MD11

CBA 24.C.6.



c. If an excessed pilot is awarded or assigned a crew position

that is also in excess, the number of pilots to be excessed
from that crew position may be increased accordingly;
provided, however, no pilot may be awarded or assigned a
crew position at an FDA base that would cause an excess
at that base.

d. If an excessed pilot is denied an award to an FDA crew
position, pursuant to Section 24.C.6.a. or C.6.c. (above),

and he has insufcient seniority to be awarded or assigned


another crew position with the same or higher rate of pay,

he shall be entitled to passover pay.

pwdrhound

It's all clear as mud now... What a lot of guys are talking about it a situation where a guy is GETTING excessed. My questinon pertains to a pilot, for example a wide body FO who is nowhere close to the bottom to worry about being excessed. This senior FO (lets say #3000) desides to bid HKG capt as his #1 choice TO RELIEVE EXCESS. This FO is currently, let's say, 900 numbers senior to the most junior current HKG captain. Let's now assume this 9-02 goes very senior for the HKG capt seat and the 20 available seats get sucked up by ultra senior guys and our hypothetical senior wide body FO does not get the award, or any other widebody captain seat in the company, and ends up staying in his current seat. Is he eligible for POP? If that was the case, if all the pilots senior the the most junior HKG capt (#3900 something) bid HKG capt at 100%, would they all get POP? I can't imagine that would be the case as the company would send the top 20 most senior guys to HKG capt and everyone else (couple of thousand guys) would be getting widebody capt POP. This doesn't sound right.....

Busboy

I would suggest anyone contemplating bidding HKG, call contract enforcement for the facts regarding your specific situation.

Busboy

NO! He wouldn't get POP, because he was NOT excessed. Unless, there were not enough people senior to him relieving the excess. You must either be excessed...or, have someone junior to you get excessed, even though you bid to relieve it. That's what I've been trying to say. Kind of.

FXDX

Popeye: here is how it would work:

Any of the pilots who is currently in a seat that is in excess on 09-02 AND is senior to the junior most Captain in HKG, AND who bids (either to relieve the excess or is excessed) Captain HKG at 100% AND who are not actually awarded HKG because it is full (you can't cause an excess at an FDA), AND is actually excessed, would then be eligible for POP.

All such eligible pilots would be put on a virtual training letter for the Captain seat in HKG (not everyone would train at the same time, just like a real training letter) AND at the time of their virtual activation date they would then start drawing passover pay, IF they continued to bid HKG CA at 100% and hadn't already been awarded a seat that paid as much or they actually activated in HKG, as at that time they would be receiving the CA pay rate anyway.

The catch in all of this is that the company has 20 vacancies open in HKG CA right now. They could always plus up that seat some amount, and we don't know that amount. They could award 30 pilots the seat, or just the 20 advertised. They could award 40 pilots the seat, it is up to them, as they define what an excess is.

So, if you want to bid HKG CA just for passover and not actually go there, you have to be willing to bet that you will not be among the 20 (or what ever number the company decides to put there) senior most guys who are rolling the dice with you. 20(+) of those who bid it are going to actually be awarded the seat and will go to HKG. Who those 20 are is the big question mark that will prevent a lot of people from bidding it just for the possibility of getting passover, in my opinion.

Busboy

You're right. It's the company's call on how many they actually activate.

But, it's the excessed pilot's call on whether he actually signs the FDA letter, right? That is, if you're willing to take a 2 yr position freeze.

From the FDA-LOA:

Sec A.2.b.(and c.)Pilots awarded vacancies at CDG or HKG will be provided with paper copies of the agreement and shall sign and return such signed copies to the System Chief Pilot prior to the start of any training for the FDA vacancy, or, if no training is required, then prior to the distribution of any benefits stemming from the pilot’s FDA vacancy award (e.g., seed money).

Absent extenuating circumstances, if a pilot later fails or refuses to sign the agreement in the required time frame, he shall be frozen in his current crew position for two years, as if his failure to sign the agreement had been a down/lateral bid covered by Section 24.E.1.c. Such freeze shall not result in any passover pay.