IPA - "We Take Care Of Our Own" fund?
03-07-2009, 10:06 AM
#11
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2007
Posts: 157
Joe
Avg Joe,
When the union negotiated a great contract in '97, I'll bet you were waving the union flag high and mighty. When we negotiated the best contract in the industry in '06, I'm sure you bragged to all of your friends about your new found income tax bracket.
Now that the union wants your help, you are a shrew looking for a hole to hide in. Being in a union means we share the success, and shoulder the burdens TOGETHER.
I do not know David Vasquez or Stephen Ellington, but I contributed to their IPA funds. I contribute to the IPA foundation and United Way. I am in no danger of furlough, but I will support my fellow IPA'ers.
And even though I do not like your way of thinking, I will be happy to know that my mutual aid contribution is supporting you if you are injured or long term sick someday.
Rott
When the union negotiated a great contract in '97, I'll bet you were waving the union flag high and mighty. When we negotiated the best contract in the industry in '06, I'm sure you bragged to all of your friends about your new found income tax bracket.
Now that the union wants your help, you are a shrew looking for a hole to hide in. Being in a union means we share the success, and shoulder the burdens TOGETHER.
I do not know David Vasquez or Stephen Ellington, but I contributed to their IPA funds. I contribute to the IPA foundation and United Way. I am in no danger of furlough, but I will support my fellow IPA'ers.
And even though I do not like your way of thinking, I will be happy to know that my mutual aid contribution is supporting you if you are injured or long term sick someday.
Rott
03-07-2009, 10:18 AM
#12
New ride...
Joined APC: Apr 2005
Posts: 534
Sorry AW... but I disagree with your MANDATORY premise. If people would like to VOLUNTARILY contribute to a fund then I'm all for it and would be happy to contribute.
Manning levels are at the discretion of the company and EVERYONE in this industry understands the cyclical nature of the airline business and its associated hazards when one is junior. I don't mean to sound harsh or unsympathetic to the plight of those facing potential furlough, but when I accepted employment with UPS (and membership into the IPA) I did NOT also agree to financially support nearly 3000 co-workers! It simply was not part of the agreement.
Everywhere I turn people want a handout or bailout. Some need to be reminded that it is incumbent upon all of us to provide for ourselves in life. If you're unfortunate to be furloughed, then you do what others do every day in other industries that downsize and scramble to find another job doing ANYTHING to pay the bills until you are recalled or choose another career path. I assume that if you are furloughed then you are young, healthy and able-bodied. I'm sure we've all been in a similar situation sometime in our careers (just out of college, between jobs, downsized, furloughed, fired, separated from military, etc...)
My wife and friends are in complete disbelief that co-workers united only by their membership in a trade union would be expected to financially support hundreds or thousands of their co-workers. You are essentially proposing to garnish people's wages to force them to give to a charity. All else aside, I'm fairly certain a mandatory confiscation of someone's wages to forcibly contribute to a charity is illegal.
Just to repeat... I'm all for a voluntary fund.
Joe
Manning levels are at the discretion of the company and EVERYONE in this industry understands the cyclical nature of the airline business and its associated hazards when one is junior. I don't mean to sound harsh or unsympathetic to the plight of those facing potential furlough, but when I accepted employment with UPS (and membership into the IPA) I did NOT also agree to financially support nearly 3000 co-workers! It simply was not part of the agreement.
Everywhere I turn people want a handout or bailout. Some need to be reminded that it is incumbent upon all of us to provide for ourselves in life. If you're unfortunate to be furloughed, then you do what others do every day in other industries that downsize and scramble to find another job doing ANYTHING to pay the bills until you are recalled or choose another career path. I assume that if you are furloughed then you are young, healthy and able-bodied. I'm sure we've all been in a similar situation sometime in our careers (just out of college, between jobs, downsized, furloughed, fired, separated from military, etc...)
My wife and friends are in complete disbelief that co-workers united only by their membership in a trade union would be expected to financially support hundreds or thousands of their co-workers. You are essentially proposing to garnish people's wages to force them to give to a charity. All else aside, I'm fairly certain a mandatory confiscation of someone's wages to forcibly contribute to a charity is illegal.
Just to repeat... I'm all for a voluntary fund.
Joe
Your point is absolutely legit. I totally understand where you are coming from, and thus, I am not going to respond negatively to your comments. The big difference that I see here vs. the normal "furlough threat" is that UPS is making money and this "annoucement" reeks of nothing more than hostage taking and contract land grab.
Now, you may be saying, so what is your point. I'm glad you asked. I have been one of those unfortunate people that you speak of in your post - furloughed 3 times in 5 years. Thankfully, I survived. I'm still married to my awesome wife, and I have finally been able to pay off most of our debts from those years. However, when things were at their darkest, it would have been nice to know that my fellow pilots even cared an inkling that I lost my job and that they were concerned for my well-being. Well, they didn't. They piled up the opentime on their schedules, while I stressed about keeping some sort of medical coverage. In another one of my furloughs, I got a year subscription to Air, Inc. Man, did that help.
Because of all of this, I have no love lost for ALPA (they were the rep for all those airlines), or some of the folks at those airlines. We, the IPA, can do something about that insidious, festering animosity if a furlough happens. And that is support for our furloughees.I know you agree to that fact as well, however, if we did it voluntarily, the outcome of the program is unknown. We have had GREAT success at raising money for our own, and because of that, I AM PROUD TO BE A MEMBER OF THE IPA. I have never seen the generosity of a any pilot group that I see here. Now, why did we do it? Because is was just the right thing to do. And that is how I see this. It is just the right thing to do, with one caveat - we have to do it by assessment. This insures the program's success. Now, I'm not neccesarily advocating a "salary" or so, but assistance toward COBRA and some sort of small stipend wouldn't be objectionable in my eyes. Full salary, however, I believe is unworkable.
Well, that is my 2 cents. I appreciate your input to this discussion.
Last edited by 1800 RVR; 03-07-2009 at 10:23 AM. Reason: Added another thought
03-07-2009, 10:30 AM
#13
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2009
Posts: 135
As to how I arrived at the $25,000 (pre-tax) figure you and Salty are suggesting: You said the avg monthly donation would be $750, but Capt's would pay proportionately more. Since a CA earns approx 50% more than a FO the math would follow:
$750 x 1.5 = $1125/month
$1125 x 12 months = $13,500 per year
In a Capt's tax bracket (state + fed) I'd have to earn nearly $25,000 to donate $13,500.
Joe
03-07-2009, 10:40 AM
#15
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2009
Posts: 135
Ave Joe,
If you can't afford 1 or 2% then sell your boat, your airplane, your second house, or retire.
If it makes you feel better, think of it as charity. In fact, it will probably be doing more good than you may imagine, e.g. keeping a furloughed brother from:
1. declaring bankruptcy
2. losing their house.
3. having a major health crisis and not having insurance
4. divorce
Do the right thing. And don't be so cheap.
If you can't afford 1 or 2% then sell your boat, your airplane, your second house, or retire.
If it makes you feel better, think of it as charity. In fact, it will probably be doing more good than you may imagine, e.g. keeping a furloughed brother from:
1. declaring bankruptcy
2. losing their house.
3. having a major health crisis and not having insurance
4. divorce
Do the right thing. And don't be so cheap.
BTW... I live w/in my means and do NOT own a boat, airplane, second house or any "toys" for that matter. I am not over 60 either... just an avg line slug pounding out a living and trying to provide for those who depend on me for their security.
Joe
03-07-2009, 10:48 AM
#16
Permanent Reserve
Joined APC: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,682
1 or 2% is not what is being suggested. Salty and AW are suggesting 10 times that amount!
BTW... I live w/in my means and do NOT own a boat, airplane, second house or any "toys" for that matter. I am not over 60 either... just an avg line slug pounding out a living and trying to provide for those who depend on me for their security.
Joe
BTW... I live w/in my means and do NOT own a boat, airplane, second house or any "toys" for that matter. I am not over 60 either... just an avg line slug pounding out a living and trying to provide for those who depend on me for their security.
Joe
I think that 1 or 2% is plenty.
Just a small safety net to cover health insurance and prevent losing a house.
Glad to hear you are one of the few that lives within their means.
03-07-2009, 11:02 AM
#17
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Mar 2006
Posts: 3,333
As to how I arrived at the $25,000 (pre-tax) figure you and Salty are suggesting: You said the avg monthly donation would be $750, but Capt's would pay proportionately more. Since a CA earns approx 50% more than a FO the math would follow:
$750 x 1.5 = $1125/month
$1125 x 12 months = $13,500 per year
In a Capt's tax bracket (state + fed) I'd have to earn nearly $25,000 to donate $13,500.
Joe
$750 x 1.5 = $1125/month
$1125 x 12 months = $13,500 per year
In a Capt's tax bracket (state + fed) I'd have to earn nearly $25,000 to donate $13,500.
Joe
Again, I do not know the answers. This thread is more of a brainstorming session.
Let's not fool ourselves that IF this furlough materializes it'll be the typical 1-2 year furlough. The way the market conditions are it might be a very long period with no jobs available...
When I heard about Salty’s idea I became inspired, I really did. I'm so fed up with how other unions have given up on their members and here I saw something very different. Like someone else pointed out, look at the donations for the newhire with cancer, etc... Awesome! Made me feel like I belonged to the ultimate club of friends...
You know, I am still paying of my credit card debt I accumulated during my first year; I also am paying off my student loans and it’ll be years before I am all done. Live in a small 1,100 sq foot condo with no boat in sight...
That’s ok though because I knew what I was getting into when I chose this profession. Having said that, if I am one of the fortunate ones who still has a job should the furloughs materialize I will be more than willing to donate as much as my union asks me to donate to OUR guys’ & gals’ fund.
If others chose not to help, I will respect their decision because it is up to them to determine if they want to help or not. I will however keep trying to get them (and maybe you) to join our efforts…
I believe our union could become a role model for other associations should our efforts succeed…
03-07-2009, 11:04 AM
#18
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2009
Posts: 101
Can one still collect unemployment if they are getting money from the union? How is it taxed? What if a furloughed pilot finds another job? Will they still get the money from the union?
How long will the furlough fund operate? What happens if a pilot decides to quit and move on? How will the IPA know to stop paying out money to him.
I am grateful to all for the consideration since I will be furloughed if they cut to >125 pilots, but I'll bet that this idea probably won't work (or even be legal). I'm not saying that it won't, but I recall something like this being talked about at my old airline right before a furlough, and it was basically abandoned for some reason.
How long will the furlough fund operate? What happens if a pilot decides to quit and move on? How will the IPA know to stop paying out money to him.
I am grateful to all for the consideration since I will be furloughed if they cut to >125 pilots, but I'll bet that this idea probably won't work (or even be legal). I'm not saying that it won't, but I recall something like this being talked about at my old airline right before a furlough, and it was basically abandoned for some reason.
03-07-2009, 11:06 AM
#19
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Mar 2006
Posts: 3,333
That's what they said about the mutual aid plan too...
03-07-2009, 12:20 PM
#20
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2009
Posts: 135
I know you agree to that fact as well, however, if we did it voluntarily, the outcome of the program is unknown. We have had GREAT success at raising money for our own, and because of that, I AM PROUD TO BE A MEMBER OF THE IPA. I have never seen the generosity of a any pilot group that I see here. Now, why did we do it? Because is was just the right thing to do. And that is how I see this. It is just the right thing to do, with one caveat - we have to do it by assessment. This insures the program's success.
I'm puzzled by the sentiment you (and others) express (that the IPA is a special brotherhood) due in large part to past very successful VOLUNTARY financial campaigns to aid fellow crew members. In other words, you could hardly believe fellow union members would VOLUNTARILY give so generously to fellow IPAers and thus you felt part of a brotherhood not felt at previous airlines.
Now... suddenly... you and others feel that this campaign would NOT be successful unless we force everyone to participate (do the RIGHT thing as some have put it). It seems a bit disingenuous to say you feel a special brotherhood because people are voluntarily so generous... and then turn around and say you doubt the brotherhood (success of the fund) unless we are all forced to donate? I'm sincerely confused.
Joe
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