AerisArmis

OK, a question for the pilot lounge lawyers out there.

A-300 MEM Capts A and B are one seniority number apart (Capt A is senior). Both are excessed out of their seat (which they bid at 100%). Due to their standing bid, Capt A is excessed to the right seat of the A-300 MEM and Capt B is excessed to the right seat of the 777. Capt A is sent to training in Sep 2009 and Capt B, June 2010. The question then is, is Capt A entitled to widebody Capt passover pay while Capt B, (or anyone else junior) is still receiving WB Capt pay? Apology in advance if this is spelled out in pilot language in the CBA and I just couldn't find it.

FrankTheTank

I don't think so... Good guestion!

Jetblack

No.

They are going to different airplane types. If they were both going to 777 then passover pay maybe a factor but not in the scenario you present.

Cosnuts

Speaking of passover pay, on the new HKG Bid with 20 open captain slots, an added bonus for management is flushing out anyone on wide body captain passover by forcing them to bid HKG Captain 100% if they want to retain the pay.

DornierPilot

..........

AerisArmis

True, but they are both being excessed against their will. Let's say they both had A-300 Capt @ 100% as the only choice on their standing bid and the company chose to send the senior one to the A-300 F/O and the junior to the 777 F/O slot. Using the same training dates, do you still think the junior guy should (would) get WB Capt pay 9 months longer than the senior pilot?

Jetblack

You bring up a good point in regards to their standing bid. Per section 24.C.6.b

If an excessed pilot cannot be awarded a crew position due to insufficient preferences on his standing bid, the Company shall assign him to a permanent crew position with a base in the United States with the highest pay rate to which he is entitled by his seniority.

I think there is a very slim chance that a pilot would place his fate in the hands of the company. If said pilot lived in MEM the company could place him in ANC and now he has to commute.

If you look at the 37 727 Captains who were excessed in 08-02 you will find most of them bid to the MD-11. Once the training letter was established the most junior of the involuntary captains went to training first and the most senior went last. On bid 08-06 (777) many of the excessed Captains bid the 777 thus pushing there training date back and delaying there departure from the left seat of the 727. Now they are on a different training letter and it was a vacancy posting so now they train in seniority order. The more senior of the excessed 727 pilots now go to training on the 777 before the most junior excessed 727 pilot.

If Capt A and Capt B both have the same training dates isnt the pay a moot point? I might have missed what you were asking there.

Hope this helps.

DLax85

True, but doesn't anyone who does "press to test" on this bid still have the option of declining the FDA once training is imminent?

...with the downside of being "seat locked" for 2 years....??

Looks like HKG Capt slots could be a big game of who blinks first...followed by who blinks last.

iarapilot

This is true, I do believe. The press to test on that one has been established. A Subic FO bid HKG Capt, was awarded it, and did not sign the training letter. He did not have to go. Contractually, with this new bid out, everyone has the option to big HKG, be awarded it, not sign the letter, and not go.

Mushroom

Passover pay is very explicit in the contract. Once you meet the triggers for it, what the other pilot does (the one that cause you to get the passover pay in the first place) is irrelevant. I'm not quoting the contract exactly, but essentially you lose passover when you check out in a new seat, regardless of what "the other pilot does". As previously stated, many of the excessed junior 727 Capts went to the 777 F/O position thus delaying their departure from the Capts list. When any of the other excessed 727 Capts go to training they lose their pay immediately upon checking out in their new seat, but it works the same for anyone getting passover pay as well. Yes, a junior guy might be getting Capt pay longer than a senior guy, but that is how it is written in the CBA. There are other ways to lose passover pay, like not keeping the seat your being paid for in your standing bid, but that only makes sense. Theoretically, those junior excessed 727 Capts could change their bids from the 777 F/O when their training dates get near and "ride the wave" as a Capt. It has no impact on anyone elses passover pay if they do that.