FrankTheTank

I should have mentioned the practice versus final.. For the practice, I got the whole enchilada (anc/la/hkg) but when I do settle for the final, it will be what is right for my family. In my brain, I have been thinking that for the practices everybody should 'bid to relieve' but when it comes time for the final, do what is right for your situation.. Sorry, I made an assumption...

But if it does close, I am intending to ride a 'bid to relieve' to the MD-11 all the way...

darby78

I used to wonder why guys would screw around on the practice bids (back in the glory days of huge vacancy bids), because it seemed like we were only messing with ourselves...

However, now it seems like taking some of the above mentioned actions on the PRACTICE bids is well worth it. It might at least put some more doubt in the minds of whovever pulls the trigger on letting the bid close. If the company wants us to 'bid what you want to fly' (code: tells us what you really plan to bid so we don't f-this up AGAIN), then they should engage our UNION on several of our REASONABLE mitigation strategies. Just don't forget to set it the way you want it before the close

D

kronan

The Union doesn't want, nor should, give advice on how best to game the system. Doesn't want to open itself up to lawsuits/complaints by people who gamed the system and bid HKG Capt expecting to be able to bid off it before going to training.

Big question is, do you want to protect $$$ or QOL. If it's the bucks, and you don't mind going to training, then bid all of the big $$$ seats prior to your current seat, then the remaining seats in pref order.

If you don't want to go to training, start the bid with your current seat, then the big$$$ seats in preferential order.

Bid what you want to fly or are willing to live with

FDXLAG

How is it "gaming the system" to say:

It is consistant with the CBA and our understanding that:

If you are scheduled to receive POP for HKG Capt you must keep HKG Capt (100%) in your standing bid above all lesser paying seats. The 20 HKG Capt seats will be awarded to excessed pilots bidding HKG capt first. Any remaining seats will be awarded to the most senior pilot who has HKG capt on his standing bid.

As no one will be excessed from HKG CPT seats, if you are senior to the most junior HKG Capt but can not hold it this bid you will be eligible for POP IAW the recent LOA.

Caution this is not an "official" POP explanation.

fedupbusdriver

I do not think that this is correct. How can an excessed pilot be AWARDED a seat to an FDA on an excess bid, that does not have a vacancy posted on that bid?

The way I read it, if you bid the HKG Capt during the excess, you will be put in the line to get passover, but not awarded it. You will be awarded the seat that you can hold on the excess, and then the litmus test will be that you will then have to keep the HKG bid in for the vacancy. If enough people senior to you bid it, then they will be awarded the seat and you will be eligible for pop, if not, then you will be awarded the seat and will have to pack your bags, or fess up...

FDXLAG

That was my point, I don't know what the full story is but someone at the union must. The company will not tell us because they are afraid of letting the POP secret out. Although I would argue that FCIF and timing of the excess bids means that they intend to let excess guys bid HKG.

"We are currently evaluating a realignment (excess) bid that we expect to post within a week. Therefore, it’s possible that some of these vacancies will be filled through the excess process."

DLax85

Excellent post ---- I see your point, but now wondering how running these two bids simultaneously, but with different end dates, is "fair" to those that really would want to go to HKG on an Excess Bid.

IAW the scenario you outlined above, the company is actually stating we are in "Excess" in your seat and you can go anywhere your seniority holds, EXCEPT not to an FDA because it would cause an "Excess" there --- but that is simply NOT true based on the fact there is currently a "vacany posting" out for HKG.

I'm thinking the company should be forced to put the HKG vacancy bids on the excess bid --- and hopefully the MEC is discussing this issue.

fedupbusdriver

I agree. But the way that it is now, I believe that PC spoke incorrectly about the excess possibly filling the vacancy. They want to have it both ways, as usual.....

kronan

Let's see. There is nothing that says that the company can't choose to have more HKG Capts than they need to operate the base, they just can't create an "excess" at a FDA (24.C.6.a) which makes sense for us stick actuators because you don't want someone who volunteered at the FDA to be excessed back to Memphis.

IF an excess pilot bids HKG and is denied a slot, then you get POP assuming that you can't hold an equal paying slot elsewhere. (24.C.6.d) As best I can see, absolutely no provision in the contract for subsequently paying off that POP, nor is there a provision for a you're getting POP for HKG Capt and thus have to go there once a slot opens. So, in theory, once denied your HKG Capt bid to avoid creating an excess in HKG, you could collect POP forever while staying in your same seat.
Company would certainly disagree with my understanding, and, don't think an arbitrator would go along with it either....but, the POP repayment sections all deals with POP situations created by a junior crewmember activating in a seat prior to a senior guy as a result of a VACANCY bid (same or later closing). IMO a Bid to Excess seems to be treated as a VACANCY bid for POP purposes, so, if you Bid to Excess plan to go to training in Seniority order or be paid POP if a junior guy goes before you.

Being excessed goes in reverse seniority order so most junior guy gets excessed first and goes to training first and doesn't generate POP (24.D.3.a)


POP repayment scenarios are in section 24.D.2.c. In general, repayment of POP "due to Junior Pilots Early Activation" occur when you withdraw from training, subsequent posting awarded a lesser paying slot, bust training

Daniel Larusso

Why would you not be awarded it? The contract only says that you cannot be awarded the position if it would cause an excess at an FDA. By opening 09-01 prior to the excess bids and closing it after they are saying very loudly that bidding HKG will not create an excess. It's always been up to them to determine whether or not a position is in excess, whether they specifically post an excess bid for that position or not.

They could have done the same thing by including a line in the 'Future Bids' section of the FCIF statement that said something to the effect of 'we anticipate future growth in the HKG domicile', but I don't think the message would be as clear to the crew force. They've essentially declared the DC-10 and 727 in excess for years before actually excessing on those airplanes with the 'we anticipate reductions in DC-10 and 727 seats' lines that was on most bids before the 1st DC-10 excess. They're simultaneously calling the bluff of the POP people while exercising their contractual right to cancel a posting before it closes and/or their right to cancel training 30 days prior in reverse seniority order. They could have done the same thing with 08-03, which is why the union repeatedly made it clear that if you bid HKG you should be prepared to go.