12 Hours flight time FAR question (FDX)
02-11-2009, 04:45 PM
#1
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Jul 2007
Position: 767 Captain
Posts: 3,989
12 Hours flight time FAR question (FDX)
Scenario:
3 man crew operating to South America scheduled for 9:08 block. Land short due to engine problem resulting in 4:32 of block so far. GOC wants to send us on to destination if aircraft is fixed. That flight is scheduled for 8:15 block. We say no because we're a 3 man crew and cannot go over 12 hours flight time.
Fedex DO says we can since we were originally scheduled to be under 12.
Does that sound right? I thought headwinds, holding etc. that causes over 12 is okay AFTER takeoff, assuming original schedule was good. Taking off on a second leg when you already know you're going to be over 12 - that doesn't pass the common sense test.
Ends up being moot because aircraft if hard down, but I'd like to know the real answer.
Thanks.
3 man crew operating to South America scheduled for 9:08 block. Land short due to engine problem resulting in 4:32 of block so far. GOC wants to send us on to destination if aircraft is fixed. That flight is scheduled for 8:15 block. We say no because we're a 3 man crew and cannot go over 12 hours flight time.
Fedex DO says we can since we were originally scheduled to be under 12.
Does that sound right? I thought headwinds, holding etc. that causes over 12 is okay AFTER takeoff, assuming original schedule was good. Taking off on a second leg when you already know you're going to be over 12 - that doesn't pass the common sense test.
Ends up being moot because aircraft if hard down, but I'd like to know the real answer.
Thanks.
02-11-2009, 04:57 PM
#2
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2007
Posts: 222
Scenario:
3 man crew operating to South America scheduled for 9:08 block. Land short due to engine problem resulting in 4:32 of block so far. GOC wants to send us on to destination if aircraft is fixed. That flight is scheduled for 8:15 block. We say no because we're a 3 man crew and cannot go over 12 hours flight time.
Fedex DO says we can since we were originally scheduled to be under 12.
Does that sound right? I thought headwinds, holding etc. that causes over 12 is okay AFTER takeoff, assuming original schedule was good. Taking off on a second leg when you already know you're going to be over 12 - that doesn't pass the common sense test.
Ends up being moot because aircraft if hard down, but I'd like to know the real answer.
Thanks.
3 man crew operating to South America scheduled for 9:08 block. Land short due to engine problem resulting in 4:32 of block so far. GOC wants to send us on to destination if aircraft is fixed. That flight is scheduled for 8:15 block. We say no because we're a 3 man crew and cannot go over 12 hours flight time.
Fedex DO says we can since we were originally scheduled to be under 12.
Does that sound right? I thought headwinds, holding etc. that causes over 12 is okay AFTER takeoff, assuming original schedule was good. Taking off on a second leg when you already know you're going to be over 12 - that doesn't pass the common sense test.
Ends up being moot because aircraft if hard down, but I'd like to know the real answer.
Thanks.
02-11-2009, 05:01 PM
#3
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2007
Posts: 151
Scenario:
3 man crew operating to South America scheduled for 9:08 block. Land short due to engine problem resulting in 4:32 of block so far. GOC wants to send us on to destination if aircraft is fixed. That flight is scheduled for 8:15 block. We say no because we're a 3 man crew and cannot go over 12 hours flight time.
Fedex DO says we can since we were originally scheduled to be under 12.
Does that sound right? I thought headwinds, holding etc. that causes over 12 is okay AFTER takeoff, assuming original schedule was good. Taking off on a second leg when you already know you're going to be over 12 - that doesn't pass the common sense test.
Ends up being moot because aircraft if hard down, but I'd like to know the real answer.
Thanks.
3 man crew operating to South America scheduled for 9:08 block. Land short due to engine problem resulting in 4:32 of block so far. GOC wants to send us on to destination if aircraft is fixed. That flight is scheduled for 8:15 block. We say no because we're a 3 man crew and cannot go over 12 hours flight time.
Fedex DO says we can since we were originally scheduled to be under 12.
Does that sound right? I thought headwinds, holding etc. that causes over 12 is okay AFTER takeoff, assuming original schedule was good. Taking off on a second leg when you already know you're going to be over 12 - that doesn't pass the common sense test.
Ends up being moot because aircraft if hard down, but I'd like to know the real answer.
Thanks.
How do I know this, because it happened to me. EWR-ANC, diverted to IND. Thought we were done, but no, transload and go. DO pointed us to the exact reg and it's pretty clear.
02-11-2009, 06:29 PM
#4
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Joined APC: Aug 2006
Position: leaning to the left
Posts: 4,184
This is from an ALPA guide to flight time limitations from a few years ago:
Q-85. Do the supplemental rules allow a flight crewmember to exceed his/her scheduled flight time for circumstances beyond the control of the air carrier?
A-85. Yes. Unlike the domestic rules (FAR 121.471(g)), the supplemental rules do not contain a specific provision that allows a flight crewmember to exceed the flight time limitations if the extension is due to circumstances beyond the control of the air carrier. However, the FAA by interpretation has applied FAR 121.471(g) to the supplemental rules.
Guide to Flight Time Limitations
Q-85. Do the supplemental rules allow a flight crewmember to exceed his/her scheduled flight time for circumstances beyond the control of the air carrier?
A-85. Yes. Unlike the domestic rules (FAR 121.471(g)), the supplemental rules do not contain a specific provision that allows a flight crewmember to exceed the flight time limitations if the extension is due to circumstances beyond the control of the air carrier. However, the FAA by interpretation has applied FAR 121.471(g) to the supplemental rules.
Guide to Flight Time Limitations
02-12-2009, 03:05 PM
#5
Line Holder
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Posts: 52
Look at the contract, specifically 12 D 4 b. Yes, you can press on, under the same principle as 8n24 for domestic guys. As long as you weren't over 12 when you landed, you can keep going up to your duty limits. Note that it says you may continue if you're going over for unavoidable circumstances including intermediate stops, which would be the case in the scenario you described. Note also the FAR interpretation that Busboy listed above.
International Block Hour Limitations (Operational)
2-Pilot Crew
A pilot operating as part of a two pilot crew shall be subject to the operational block hour limitations provided in Section 12.C.2. (8-in-24 and related rules).
3-Pilot Crew
If a pilot operating as part of a three pilot crew (CAP, F/O, RFO or CAP, F/O, S/O) is projected to exceed the scheduled block hour limitations provided in Section 12.D.3.b. (above), since the completion of his last international legal rest period due to headwinds, ATC limitations, or other unavoidable circumstances (including an intermediate stop for these reasons), he may continue to his base or his original destination, whichever occurs first. However, a crew shall not block out from a location after having exceeded 12 ABH in a 24 hour period without a legal rest period.
International Block Hour Limitations (Operational)
2-Pilot Crew
A pilot operating as part of a two pilot crew shall be subject to the operational block hour limitations provided in Section 12.C.2. (8-in-24 and related rules).
3-Pilot Crew
If a pilot operating as part of a three pilot crew (CAP, F/O, RFO or CAP, F/O, S/O) is projected to exceed the scheduled block hour limitations provided in Section 12.D.3.b. (above), since the completion of his last international legal rest period due to headwinds, ATC limitations, or other unavoidable circumstances (including an intermediate stop for these reasons), he may continue to his base or his original destination, whichever occurs first. However, a crew shall not block out from a location after having exceeded 12 ABH in a 24 hour period without a legal rest period.
08-09-2010, 03:47 AM
#9
Proponent of Hysteria
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: "Part of the problem." : JL
Posts: 1,054
This is my 5th outfit, but I can/do remember how it was interpreted at my previous 4 (none of which were supplemental carriers):
You can't be projected to exceed the 8 hr (2 man) or 12 hr (3 man) limits at a ground stop like mentioned above.
You land somewhere, scheduled or unscheduled (as in this case), if the next leg projects you to hit 8:01 or 12:01, you CAN'T take off (or even block out).
Never had that sit arise here, but have experienced it at other carriers. Already In-flight is one thing, but after you have landed and are looking at new paperwork for the next leg, you can't block out if it adds up greater than the abv limits.
Keep in mind you always have your brain, common sense, and the "Reasonable Man" theory: The F word would not at all be unreasonable.
08-09-2010, 08:07 AM
#10
Living the dream!
Joined APC: May 2006
Position: MD-11 Capt
Posts: 915
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