fdx Carryover ; Reduced Hours ???
02-13-2009, 06:27 PM
#31
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2007
Position: 777 F/O
Posts: 340
We have a selfish seniority system. That's what we have. The seniority system allows a 15 yr guy to get paid more than a 5 yr guy via an hourly pay difference, and bid preference for QOL purposes. The selfish seniority system allows the 15 yr guy to get 100+ CHs (at that higher rate) while the 5 yr guy gets told to shut up an color. It's legal and in the contract that WE voted for, so it's OK. But don't pretend for one second that it's not SELFISH. Admitting it is the hardest part.
Last edited by onetime; 02-13-2009 at 06:40 PM.
02-13-2009, 06:48 PM
#32
Banned
Joined APC: Jan 2009
Posts: 133
We have a selfish seniority system. That's what we have. The seniority system allows a 15 yr guy to get paid more than a 5 yr guy via an hourly pay difference, and bid preference for QOL purposes. The selfish seniority system allows the 15 yr guy to get 100+ CHs (at that higher rate) while the 5 yr guy gets told to shut up an color. It's legal and in the contract that WE voted for, so it's OK. But don't pretend for one second that it's not SELFISH. Admitting it is the hardest part.
One day, You will be senior and not give a shart, till then the rest will do what's legal per the contract AND help the juniority, but ..nevermind.
02-13-2009, 06:54 PM
#33
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2007
Position: 777 F/O
Posts: 340
NEGATIVE...its called Seniority, sorry about your personal circumstances, but...shat rises to the top as they say, I don't care bout u giving to Uncle SAM or how many airlines you flew for before FDX.
One day, You will be senior and not give a shart, till then the rest will do what's legal per the contract AND help the juniority, but ..nevermind.
One day, You will be senior and not give a shart, till then the rest will do what's legal per the contract AND help the juniority, but ..nevermind.
02-13-2009, 07:13 PM
#34
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2006
Position: 767 FO
Posts: 8,047
Hmm? So you know how to bid and have used it to you advantage in the past. Now you have had a "change of heart" or more likely a change in relative seniority and your eyes have been opened to the unfairness of the matter. The fair thing, as you see it, is for everyone to "fight" to get extra time. By fight, were refering to the person with the fastest internet connection and a good bot program. Hmm? That truely does seem fair.
No more pesky seniority issues, no decrease in hours being flown. Only a redistribution of who flies them. I'm sure that if this happened no unintended concequences would result. For instance, the "in domicile guy" who currently bids reserve carryover switching to a regular line, because there is no longer an incentive, and a commuter, used to getting a regular line setting reserve for the month. Fiascos erupting monthly with training assignment that knock out portions of one's line, or maybe you would find that to be a permissable CIC situation. Remember this, just a few short months ago this subject didn't even merit discussion. But a 6-8% reduction in BLG and the threat of a furlough dictates a rewrite of the contract, abrogating seniority, and creating many new "special" conditions. The union has, for the past year, tried to get the company to implement some strategies to mitigate this situation. This included provisions for reduced carryover, protection of min days off etc,etc. The company has not seen fit to entertain any of these suggestions. Now some think that these steps can be implemented by senior members in each crew position voluntarily giving up pay, in the form of carryover and CIC. Not a chance! I have fallen on this sword in the past. Only to watch the "complainers and whiners" pick it up with lightening speed. We all have our own agendas, that in no way implies that we should permit any fellow pilot to be put on the street without exhausting every avenue possible. But self sacrifice by some becoming a boon for someone else is not the answer.
No more pesky seniority issues, no decrease in hours being flown. Only a redistribution of who flies them. I'm sure that if this happened no unintended concequences would result. For instance, the "in domicile guy" who currently bids reserve carryover switching to a regular line, because there is no longer an incentive, and a commuter, used to getting a regular line setting reserve for the month. Fiascos erupting monthly with training assignment that knock out portions of one's line, or maybe you would find that to be a permissable CIC situation. Remember this, just a few short months ago this subject didn't even merit discussion. But a 6-8% reduction in BLG and the threat of a furlough dictates a rewrite of the contract, abrogating seniority, and creating many new "special" conditions. The union has, for the past year, tried to get the company to implement some strategies to mitigate this situation. This included provisions for reduced carryover, protection of min days off etc,etc. The company has not seen fit to entertain any of these suggestions. Now some think that these steps can be implemented by senior members in each crew position voluntarily giving up pay, in the form of carryover and CIC. Not a chance! I have fallen on this sword in the past. Only to watch the "complainers and whiners" pick it up with lightening speed. We all have our own agendas, that in no way implies that we should permit any fellow pilot to be put on the street without exhausting every avenue possible. But self sacrifice by some becoming a boon for someone else is not the answer.Nope no change of bidding status, same relative seniority now as I had then. Just don't think it is right (or smart) to fly extra when the company is threatening furlough.
I got no problem with priority make up for training conflict or for sub refusal. It is not flying extra.
I do think that carryover is a big advantage to the company and disadvantage for the entire crew force. It allows over time at straight pay. If guys want to do it great but there is no reason to reward the anti-social behavior by allowing CIC to have first choice of the open time and force everyone else on reserve to pick up your slack.
Would that have unintended consequences, no doubt. But the number one guy would still get his pick of lines and there would be more open time when open time opened.
Last edited by FDXLAG; 02-13-2009 at 07:31 PM. Reason: fix quote
02-13-2009, 07:14 PM
#35
Banned
Joined APC: Jan 2009
Posts: 133
Yup, you heard correctly. A senior dude is entitled to shart that a junior dude is not; within the confines of the contract. IF a MoFo wants to have 180 hrs of credit while we are furloughing AND the UNION says nada or gives little guidance as how to proceed...its legal, morally, is up to us collectively... Junior dudes got some stones...
02-13-2009, 07:26 PM
#36
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2007
Position: MD11 FO, ANC
Posts: 1,098
AFW, ya just gotta give up on the age 60 thing. You are going to stress yourself out and never make it to retirement--at any age. Age 65 is the law of the land, just like 50 years ago age 60 became the law of the land. S&*t happens and you might as well accept it, no matter how much you dislike it. Pilots have the absolute right to fly until their 65 and all your badmouthing isn't going to change that. Just deal with it and move on to something you can do something about.
Just my opinion.
MG2
Just my opinion.
MG2
The point was that some of the same people who are bidding and protecting carryover to fly 100CH + every month are the ones who are/were the most outspoken against anyone over 60 returning to the front seats - calling them "selfish" - when they (the carryover piggies), themselves, are equally (or even more) self-centered/selfish than the over 60 guys they are blaming for all our manning problems.
"Pot meet kettle" - get it now?
02-13-2009, 10:02 PM
#37
Line Holder
Joined APC: Jul 2007
Position: B767/CPT
Posts: 56
[quote=FDXLAG;559051]Nope no change of bidding status, same relative seniority now as I had then. Just don't think it is right (or smart) to fly extra when the company is threatening furlough.
I do think that carryover is a big advantage to the company and disadvantage for the entire crew force. It allows over time at straight pay. If guys want to do it great but there is no reason to reward the anti-social behavior by allowing CIC to have first choice of the open time and force everyone else on reserve to pick up your slack.
I am having a little trouble following your logic with regards to someone picking up "my" slack. If I bid reserve carryover and it conflicts with reserve days in the following month I have the option to make up the pay lost. I am permitted to request a trip in the CIC window. I don't get leveled for that trip until I fly it. Remember, the trip that was picked up was in lieu of r-days, that may or may not have been flown. So I should be leveled for that trip. If I am fortunate to have that trip early in the month it may help with leveling. Vacation works the same way.
"Anti-social behavior", think your letting your emotions get the best of you. What you propose is not going to help the manning problem, it will only redistribute the hours to those with more savy computer skills and a faster line to the server. Thereby circumventing the seniority system for an unratified psuedo-fair substitute.
It appears that you are adept in the art of bidding. You must realize that carryover is used for several other purposes besides maximizing ones pay. It is also used to improve schedules, maximize vacation, create large blocks of free days, and get extra days off. The 120 credit hours per month people are the exception. Look at the norm. If your upset with the guy who is at home 20 day per month, move to a domicile and bid reserve.
There have been some suggestions that carryover can be reduce by the company. If they can accomplish that, I'm all for it. But if they can't or more importantly will not, let's not make up some new "fair" rules.
I have stated all along, we need to do whatever can be done to keep every pilot on the property. If carryover is the problem, which I don't believe is the case, eliminate it, if you can't we have a contract that deals with this issue.
I do think that carryover is a big advantage to the company and disadvantage for the entire crew force. It allows over time at straight pay. If guys want to do it great but there is no reason to reward the anti-social behavior by allowing CIC to have first choice of the open time and force everyone else on reserve to pick up your slack.
I am having a little trouble following your logic with regards to someone picking up "my" slack. If I bid reserve carryover and it conflicts with reserve days in the following month I have the option to make up the pay lost. I am permitted to request a trip in the CIC window. I don't get leveled for that trip until I fly it. Remember, the trip that was picked up was in lieu of r-days, that may or may not have been flown. So I should be leveled for that trip. If I am fortunate to have that trip early in the month it may help with leveling. Vacation works the same way.
"Anti-social behavior", think your letting your emotions get the best of you. What you propose is not going to help the manning problem, it will only redistribute the hours to those with more savy computer skills and a faster line to the server. Thereby circumventing the seniority system for an unratified psuedo-fair substitute.
It appears that you are adept in the art of bidding. You must realize that carryover is used for several other purposes besides maximizing ones pay. It is also used to improve schedules, maximize vacation, create large blocks of free days, and get extra days off. The 120 credit hours per month people are the exception. Look at the norm. If your upset with the guy who is at home 20 day per month, move to a domicile and bid reserve.
There have been some suggestions that carryover can be reduce by the company. If they can accomplish that, I'm all for it. But if they can't or more importantly will not, let's not make up some new "fair" rules.
I have stated all along, we need to do whatever can be done to keep every pilot on the property. If carryover is the problem, which I don't believe is the case, eliminate it, if you can't we have a contract that deals with this issue.
02-13-2009, 10:07 PM
#38
Ref +8
Joined APC: Aug 2007
Position: North by Midwest
Posts: 383
Hey now, I would like for someone to explain to me why I am taking a "reduction hit" on my monthly pay and the Company is still publishing CARRYOVER lines ??? What the Hell ........... Over ??? So, it appears that they are calling us "overmanned in seats" and they also want to keep this CARRYOVER situation ??? What side of the mouth is this coming from ??? I don't mind taking my fair share of PAIN, as long as EVERBODY ELSE IS TAKING IT TOO ............... Somebody please explain this, my keyboard is smokin' ............................
02-14-2009, 04:55 AM
#39
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2006
Position: 767 FO
Posts: 8,047
Originally Posted by UnskilledFXer;559101I am having a little trouble following your logic with regards to someone picking up "my" slack. If I bid reserve carryover and it conflicts with reserve days in the following month I have the option to make up the pay [B
lost[/B]. I am permitted to request a trip in the CIC window. I don't get leveled for that trip until I fly it. Remember, the trip that was picked up was in lieu of r-days, that may or may not have been flown. So I should be leveled for that trip. If I am fortunate to have that trip early in the month it may help with leveling. Vacation works the same way.
"Anti-social behavior", think your letting your emotions get the best of you. What you propose is not going to help the manning problem, it will only redistribute the hours to those with more savy computer skills and a faster line to the server. Thereby circumventing the seniority system for an unratified psuedo-fair substitute.
It appears that you are adept in the art of bidding. You must realize that carryover is used for several other purposes besides maximizing ones pay. It is also used to improve schedules, maximize vacation, create large blocks of free days, and get extra days off. The 120 credit hours per month people are the exception. Look at the norm. If your upset with the guy who is at home 20 day per month, move to a domicile and bid reserve.
There have been some suggestions that carryover can be reduce by the company. If they can accomplish that, I'm all for it. But if they can't or more importantly will not, let's not make up some new "fair" rules.
I have stated all along, we need to do whatever can be done to keep every pilot on the property. If carryover is the problem, which I don't believe is the case, eliminate it, if you can't we have a contract that deals with this issue.
"Anti-social behavior", think your letting your emotions get the best of you. What you propose is not going to help the manning problem, it will only redistribute the hours to those with more savy computer skills and a faster line to the server. Thereby circumventing the seniority system for an unratified psuedo-fair substitute.
It appears that you are adept in the art of bidding. You must realize that carryover is used for several other purposes besides maximizing ones pay. It is also used to improve schedules, maximize vacation, create large blocks of free days, and get extra days off. The 120 credit hours per month people are the exception. Look at the norm. If your upset with the guy who is at home 20 day per month, move to a domicile and bid reserve.
There have been some suggestions that carryover can be reduce by the company. If they can accomplish that, I'm all for it. But if they can't or more importantly will not, let's not make up some new "fair" rules.
I have stated all along, we need to do whatever can be done to keep every pilot on the property. If carryover is the problem, which I don't believe is the case, eliminate it, if you can't we have a contract that deals with this issue.
If there are 12 guys on alert getting paid RLG but 2 of them start start the month with CIC trips that give them 30 hours of leveling the other 10 guys must fly all the reserve trips until they catch up with the leveling. Same pay different odds of geting a phone call. Tony Soprano would be proud.
02-14-2009, 05:29 AM
#40
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2007
Position: 777 F/O
Posts: 340
Yup, you heard correctly. A senior dude is entitled to shart that a junior dude is not; within the confines of the contract. IF a MoFo wants to have 180 hrs of credit while we are furloughing AND the UNION says nada or gives little guidance as how to proceed...its legal, morally, is up to us collectively... Junior dudes got some stones...
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