Working "100%" at FedEx??
04-21-2006, 07:33 AM
#31
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: ANC-Based MD-11 FO
Posts: 328
I apoligize if this is a repeat of earlier posts, I'm just skimming over the rants and may have skimmed over this same thought:
By the time we get to the point where we are going to take formal action as a union, all we can do is reflect our individual positions in individual ways. For myself, I'm fed up with the delays, insincere offers, and pointed accusations of unfairness that our management throws at us. So in my own show of frustration, I refuse to work more than 100%.
Some pilots for whatever reason, choose to work extra. Yes, they can do that and no, doing so is not violating anything at this point. However, management watches and gauges our collective position by the way we respond to what is going on. If say, the percentage of the pilots working extra right now is similar to the statistical average, that conveys the message to management that as a group, we are satisfied with things as they are and management has no incentive to change or work toward a newer contract.
If on the other hand, the percentage of pilots working extra drops below statistical averages and we are not yet at the point of a formal union action, then that conveys the message to management that we are unsatisfied with progress. At least it provides a statistical point they can use to judge their response.
If most of our pilots continue to work extra, then they must be satisfied with things as they are, satisfied with the current contract, and satisfied with not changing anything. Then I guess I'm outside the bell curve. Oh well.
However, if pilots are not satisfied with progress, they should not be hiding behind the the shield of "...well, the union hasn't directed it yet so I'm okay..." in order to make extra money--a very short-sighted position, I think. That's a misunderstanding of tools available for employee groups to use to influence management. Waiting until formal union action is authorized by NLRB is waiting until it's too late, I think.
I also think hiding behind the shield of "not my job yet" demonstrates an individual's level of interest. It's easy to ride the coattails of those more involved in taking action and it also provides a level of distance from the problems one might have to endure by taking a more active role. We will not gain the contract we deserve if everyone takes that position.
As an example, I was really surprised that only 58% of our pilots even voted on the ANC LOA issue. 58%...??? Why not 99%??? How can we be so late in this negotiation and still only get around half of our pilots participating in a vote--granted, not on a negotiation subject, but still everyone should have voted.
By the time we get to the point where we are going to take formal action as a union, all we can do is reflect our individual positions in individual ways. For myself, I'm fed up with the delays, insincere offers, and pointed accusations of unfairness that our management throws at us. So in my own show of frustration, I refuse to work more than 100%.
Some pilots for whatever reason, choose to work extra. Yes, they can do that and no, doing so is not violating anything at this point. However, management watches and gauges our collective position by the way we respond to what is going on. If say, the percentage of the pilots working extra right now is similar to the statistical average, that conveys the message to management that as a group, we are satisfied with things as they are and management has no incentive to change or work toward a newer contract.
If on the other hand, the percentage of pilots working extra drops below statistical averages and we are not yet at the point of a formal union action, then that conveys the message to management that we are unsatisfied with progress. At least it provides a statistical point they can use to judge their response.
If most of our pilots continue to work extra, then they must be satisfied with things as they are, satisfied with the current contract, and satisfied with not changing anything. Then I guess I'm outside the bell curve. Oh well.
However, if pilots are not satisfied with progress, they should not be hiding behind the the shield of "...well, the union hasn't directed it yet so I'm okay..." in order to make extra money--a very short-sighted position, I think. That's a misunderstanding of tools available for employee groups to use to influence management. Waiting until formal union action is authorized by NLRB is waiting until it's too late, I think.
I also think hiding behind the shield of "not my job yet" demonstrates an individual's level of interest. It's easy to ride the coattails of those more involved in taking action and it also provides a level of distance from the problems one might have to endure by taking a more active role. We will not gain the contract we deserve if everyone takes that position.
As an example, I was really surprised that only 58% of our pilots even voted on the ANC LOA issue. 58%...??? Why not 99%??? How can we be so late in this negotiation and still only get around half of our pilots participating in a vote--granted, not on a negotiation subject, but still everyone should have voted.
Last edited by FDXFLYR; 04-21-2006 at 07:46 AM.
04-21-2006, 07:56 AM
#32
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Posts: 2,838
Originally Posted by matty
I think we might be able to agree to disagree on this one. Some people think that picking up extra doesn't hurt, some do...Some people think that it hurts different people than the ones that think that it hurts the company.
I think where things got skewed was with the Work xtra thing. There are some folks here that think we should "Never" be allowed to fly any extra, consequently there are other folks here who have carved out their personal lifestyles flying xtra every month. Ie folks who can't pay the bills if they don't get that draft trip. I am in the Middle on this issue. I think Under Normal circumstances, the ability to fly extra can be a got thing.................but I also feel there should be a DFT/VLT system that is verfiable (Transparent) where the wealth can be spread more evenly through the ranks..............but that is another story.
The issue as you well know Matty.......is MGT is in NO hurry to settle this thing, and has absolutley no incentive (at this point) to negotiate any pay raises or any increase in cost to them.........So for the next 6 months to a year or more, our side will bicker with their side over Pay ,Scope, RIGS and Bennies.......
MGT can put pressure on us (and does) by racheting up the optimizer......massive trip revisions,Unecessarily denial of trip trades, R day movements,......Not giving the more Senior VTO line holder his/her line preferences, I think you get the picture.
How do we the Pilots say We have had enough?
Yeap we wear our Hats.....we place our stickers on our Bags.we show up in Large numbers to Rallies and we engage in informational Picketing. These all all very good things but they really do not put enough economic pressure to get a little movement at the Negotiating table.
The Union could do something stupid and illegal like the Allied Pilots Assoc (American Airlines) did several years back..........call for massive sick out.
We all remember the rsults of that..........Case law precidents were set.
ALPA won't follow in those footsteps....................................
So we really have 3 choices.
1. We can ask our negotiaters to Settle for whatever MGT will give us.....................(we know that it will be little). This choice isn't really preferable IMHO.
2. We can wait it out for another year or more and then when we finally hit the end of the 30 day cooling off period we end up with 2 choices. Strike or accept the last offer (if there really is one). Neither of these 2 choices is preferable IMHO.
3. We can support our negotiating committee and prove MGT that we are worthy. We must legally put economic pressure on the company to pony up enough money that we can all settle this deal once and for all.
The MEC/Negotiating committee WILL NOT ask nor Direct us not to work extra.
We all know that if the leadership DID it would be deemed a work action and thus would be illegal. The fact the Pilots say the Union hasn't told me........are either very niave or simply use that as an excuse. The UNION cannot and will not direct us to do anything of that sort until the end of the 30 day cooling off period..........at which time it would be too late for no xtra flying..........at that time the Union direction will be NO FLYING at ALL!
But and a Big but.........The individual choice not to fly Extra is NOT illegal.
Contractually we are NOT required to fly extra........it is a individual option.
If 4700 individuals decided not to work extra.....UNTIL we get a deal. That would be a legal choice (as long as it was not directed or hinted at by the Union) and IMHO we would get an acceptable deal sooner than if 4700 opted otherwise. I as I am sure 4700 other folks want to avoid a major confrontation. IMHO doing my Scheduled JOB is the best way to avoid that for now.
Once a deal is inked........4700 guys can say it is now in my best interest to fly that extra trip.or two...................
Those are the FACTS and the Crux of the argument to or not to FLy xtra.
04-21-2006, 10:32 AM
#33
Guest
Posts: n/a
Originally Posted by aircum
Jack, Jack, Jack *ff
Before I start let me say I am civilian as well. How can you possibly slam our countrymen that have served this great country. Part of the reason you have this job, is former men and women who served and died to protect this freedom you now enjoy. I payed for my career as well, but I will never, never look down on someone who went other ways. That my "friend" is childish. I am on the 27 as well, and should you bring that attitude to my cockpit, you may leave. Period!! God Bless our soldiers!!
Before I start let me say I am civilian as well. How can you possibly slam our countrymen that have served this great country. Part of the reason you have this job, is former men and women who served and died to protect this freedom you now enjoy. I payed for my career as well, but I will never, never look down on someone who went other ways. That my "friend" is childish. I am on the 27 as well, and should you bring that attitude to my cockpit, you may leave. Period!! God Bless our soldiers!!
04-21-2006, 10:50 AM
#34
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2005
Position: Retired
Posts: 980
Originally Posted by jack
When did I ever slam the military guys? You cant find one posting where I said that. Period. What I did say and I repeat. That there are guys that use mil. leave to their advantage and do not do so out of great patriotism but because they want to get time off and paid. And guess who told me that? A military guy. Its unfair and misleading to question my patriotism. I have learned to be distrustful and with good reason when people start using the word "team". In my experience that generally means you play by the rules while somone else benefit. Lastly, with this pilot group there is far more "slamming" of civilians guys from the military guys then vice versa.
Was it once said that patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel?
04-21-2006, 11:56 AM
#35
Down, 3 Green
Joined APC: Feb 2006
Position: MEM A300
Posts: 103
Hoisting the BS Flag
Originally Posted by jack
When did I ever slam the military guys? You cant find one posting where I said that. Period.
Ahem ...
Originally Posted by jack
Some of us had to really "pay" are dues not get there skills through the taxpayer. Your welcome.
Originally Posted by jack
I have learned to be distrustful and with good reason when people start using the word "team". In my experience that generally means you play by the rules while somone else benefit.
Keep posting and whining all you want, but at least take a second to review what you type before you post it. Ask yourself, (A) Is that what I really believe? and (B) Why didn't I pay more attention in school?
"are" or "our"
"there" versus "their"
"your" might be "you're"
and "somone" would have been corrected if "someone" had used the SPELL CHECK feature provided by this site!
PLEASE don't apply for the FFDO training ... your "guns blazing without aiming" attitude is dangerous.
04-21-2006, 12:30 PM
#36
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Posts: 2,838
Jack exactly who are you anyway?
Sorry Folks.........I said I wasn't going to reply to JACK again but.............
Post # 8 from Jack "Not to mention how many times do I hear of you military guys working your schedule to do mil leave and while the rest of us have to pick up your schedule."
Jack nobody has to pick up the slack, just fly your schedule if you wish.
Post #14 from Jack "So being in the military gives you a right to alter your schedule as you please without regard to your fellow pilots."
Post #16 from Jack "Youre retired? Now I really dont care what you think."
Jack you give the impression to the rest of us that you don't care about anyone but yourself
Post #19 from Jack "Well that "night job" is my career. Some of us had to really "pay" are dues not get there skills through the taxpayer. Your welcome.
Jack it is our career too!
Post #33 from Jack "When did I ever slam the military guys? "
Jack refer to the above Posts!
Post #33 cont'd from Jack " I have learned to be distrustful and with good reason when people start using the word "team".
Jack, have you ever heard the saying......."There is no I in team" ?
Post #33 Cont'd from Jack "Lastly, with this pilot group there is far more "slamming" of civilians guys from the military guys then vice versa"
Jack "The defense rests"!
Oh BTW are you planning on staying on the 727 on this BID? Just curious and asking for the benefit of the rest of this group. Have a nice day Jack
Post # 8 from Jack "Not to mention how many times do I hear of you military guys working your schedule to do mil leave and while the rest of us have to pick up your schedule."
Jack nobody has to pick up the slack, just fly your schedule if you wish.
Post #14 from Jack "So being in the military gives you a right to alter your schedule as you please without regard to your fellow pilots."
Post #16 from Jack "Youre retired? Now I really dont care what you think."
Jack you give the impression to the rest of us that you don't care about anyone but yourself
Post #19 from Jack "Well that "night job" is my career. Some of us had to really "pay" are dues not get there skills through the taxpayer. Your welcome.
Jack it is our career too!
Post #33 from Jack "When did I ever slam the military guys? "
Jack refer to the above Posts!
Post #33 cont'd from Jack " I have learned to be distrustful and with good reason when people start using the word "team".
Jack, have you ever heard the saying......."There is no I in team" ?
Post #33 Cont'd from Jack "Lastly, with this pilot group there is far more "slamming" of civilians guys from the military guys then vice versa"
Jack "The defense rests"!
Oh BTW are you planning on staying on the 727 on this BID? Just curious and asking for the benefit of the rest of this group. Have a nice day Jack
04-21-2006, 12:42 PM
#37
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Posts: 2,838
No Apology Necessary
Originally Posted by FDXFLYR
I apoligize if this is a repeat of earlier posts, I'm just skimming over the rants and may have skimmed over this same thought:
By the time we get to the point where we are going to take formal action as a union, all we can do is reflect our individual positions in individual ways. For myself, I'm fed up with the delays, insincere offers, and pointed accusations of unfairness that our management throws at us. So in my own show of frustration, I refuse to work more than 100%. Absolutely Positively 100%
Some pilots for whatever reason, choose to work extra. Yes, they can do that and no, doing so is not violating anything at this point. However, management watches and gauges our collective position by the way we respond to what is going on. If say, the percentage of the pilots working extra right now is similar to the statistical average, that conveys the message to management that as a group, we are satisfied with things as they are and management has no incentive to change or work toward a newer contract. BINGO
If on the other hand, the percentage of pilots working extra drops below statistical averages and we are not yet at the point of a formal union action, then that conveys the message to management that we are unsatisfied with progress. At least it provides a statistical point they can use to judge their response. Not to mention , just maybe when a few boxes don't make the 1030am delivery because there are no crews to fly it....maybe it will get some motivation to get a deal inked.
If most of our pilots continue to work extra, then they must be satisfied with things as they are, satisfied with the current contract, and satisfied with not changing anything. Then I guess I'm outside the bell curve. Oh well.
Unfortunatley these same folks will *****, complain and probably quit the Union when a subpar contract is delivered
However, if pilots are not satisfied with progress, they should not be hiding behind the the shield of "...well, the union hasn't directed it yet so I'm okay..." in order to make extra money--a very short-sighted position, I think. That's a misunderstanding of tools available for employee groups to use to influence management. Waiting until formal union action is authorized by NLRB ( the NMB under the RLA) is waiting until it's too late, I think. You are correct
I also think hiding behind the shield of "not my job yet" demonstrates an individual's level of interest. It's easy to ride the coattails of those more involved in taking action and it also provides a level of distance from the problems one might have to endure by taking a more active role. We will not gain the contract we deserve if everyone takes that position. Couldn't agree with you more
As an example, I was really surprised that only 58% of our pilots even voted on the ANC LOA issue. 58%...??? Why not 99%??? How can we be so late in this negotiation and still only get around half of our pilots participating in a vote--granted, not on a negotiation subject, but still everyone should have voted. very true........sad but true
By the time we get to the point where we are going to take formal action as a union, all we can do is reflect our individual positions in individual ways. For myself, I'm fed up with the delays, insincere offers, and pointed accusations of unfairness that our management throws at us. So in my own show of frustration, I refuse to work more than 100%. Absolutely Positively 100%
Some pilots for whatever reason, choose to work extra. Yes, they can do that and no, doing so is not violating anything at this point. However, management watches and gauges our collective position by the way we respond to what is going on. If say, the percentage of the pilots working extra right now is similar to the statistical average, that conveys the message to management that as a group, we are satisfied with things as they are and management has no incentive to change or work toward a newer contract. BINGO
If on the other hand, the percentage of pilots working extra drops below statistical averages and we are not yet at the point of a formal union action, then that conveys the message to management that we are unsatisfied with progress. At least it provides a statistical point they can use to judge their response. Not to mention , just maybe when a few boxes don't make the 1030am delivery because there are no crews to fly it....maybe it will get some motivation to get a deal inked.
If most of our pilots continue to work extra, then they must be satisfied with things as they are, satisfied with the current contract, and satisfied with not changing anything. Then I guess I'm outside the bell curve. Oh well.
Unfortunatley these same folks will *****, complain and probably quit the Union when a subpar contract is delivered
However, if pilots are not satisfied with progress, they should not be hiding behind the the shield of "...well, the union hasn't directed it yet so I'm okay..." in order to make extra money--a very short-sighted position, I think. That's a misunderstanding of tools available for employee groups to use to influence management. Waiting until formal union action is authorized by NLRB ( the NMB under the RLA) is waiting until it's too late, I think. You are correct
I also think hiding behind the shield of "not my job yet" demonstrates an individual's level of interest. It's easy to ride the coattails of those more involved in taking action and it also provides a level of distance from the problems one might have to endure by taking a more active role. We will not gain the contract we deserve if everyone takes that position. Couldn't agree with you more
As an example, I was really surprised that only 58% of our pilots even voted on the ANC LOA issue. 58%...??? Why not 99%??? How can we be so late in this negotiation and still only get around half of our pilots participating in a vote--granted, not on a negotiation subject, but still everyone should have voted. very true........sad but true
Great Minds think a like FDXFLYR! Cheers
04-21-2006, 06:58 PM
#39
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Posts: 394
Originally Posted by RedeyeAV8r
Matty Ahh....how refreshing, to have someone who wants to have a civil debate. Are you Matty D by the way?
There are some folks here that think we should "Never" be allowed to fly any extra, consequently there are other folks here who have carved out their personal lifestyles flying xtra every month. Ie folks who can't pay the bills if they don't get that draft trip. I am in the Middle on this issue. I think Under Normal circumstances, the ability to fly extra can be a got thing.................but I also feel there should be a DFT/VLT system that is verfiable (Transparent) where the wealth can be spread more evenly through the ranks..............but that is another story.
There are some folks here that think we should "Never" be allowed to fly any extra, consequently there are other folks here who have carved out their personal lifestyles flying xtra every month. Ie folks who can't pay the bills if they don't get that draft trip. I am in the Middle on this issue. I think Under Normal circumstances, the ability to fly extra can be a got thing.................but I also feel there should be a DFT/VLT system that is verfiable (Transparent) where the wealth can be spread more evenly through the ranks..............but that is another story.
I still won't agree 100% (no pun intended
) that avoiding extra flying will make the impact that is needed. Yes, it will make some impact, but I don't think it be enough to get it done. Maybe I'm wrong. This whole contract thing is very frustrating. Why can't they just put an offer on the table that at least comes close?
I think I know my answer...it's all business and all part of the game. I bet a TA is on the street w/in a month of UPS' deal...
04-22-2006, 05:02 AM
#40
With The Resistance
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: Burning the Agitprop of the Apparat
Posts: 6,191
FEDEX and UPS tend to mirror each others moves. Guys at Brown are saying as soon as FEDEX gets their contract we will get ours. Neither wants to have a disadvantage in the market place-it would not surprise me if high level talks among the two are sorting out the eventual settlement. Illegal, but they do seem to get things done in a very similar fashion very often.
The only possible catalyst is a requirement to settle with other components of labor within the company, or a strong desire to alter work rules to gain more productivity, or a demand by the labor boards to finish the negotiations.
Maybe next summer.
I don't believe in fairy tales, but it does seem odd that a company so proud of it's fairness, charity and public image would treat it's employees so poorly.
We are a commodity being priced in the market and nothing more. It really isn't about the money, since the settlement differences are so small as to be meaningless to the companies involved.
In the meantime both companies are destroying good will within the workforce that could cost them dearly in the long run. If fuel remains at the current high levels or goes higher, the entire cargo market could get very ugly.
The only possible catalyst is a requirement to settle with other components of labor within the company, or a strong desire to alter work rules to gain more productivity, or a demand by the labor boards to finish the negotiations.
Maybe next summer.
I don't believe in fairy tales, but it does seem odd that a company so proud of it's fairness, charity and public image would treat it's employees so poorly.
We are a commodity being priced in the market and nothing more. It really isn't about the money, since the settlement differences are so small as to be meaningless to the companies involved.
In the meantime both companies are destroying good will within the workforce that could cost them dearly in the long run. If fuel remains at the current high levels or goes higher, the entire cargo market could get very ugly.
Last edited by jungle; 04-22-2006 at 05:18 AM.
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